Green Car of the Year 2014 - includes no Electric Cars

[AustinPowers]

Er, does it? CO2 per kWh generated in Germany was 433 g/kWh in 2009. Account for 4% transmission losses and you're up to 450 g/kWh. According to the EPA the 60kWh Model S uses 35 kWh from the wall to travel 160 km, but NEDC ranges are 12% higher so it's closer to 180km in Europe.

In the end you're looking at a total of 88 g/km. A comparable diesel Audi A7 or BMW 5 series emits 140-165 g/km.

Not anymore. As you said, "in 2009". In those days a large percentage of the German energy mix came from so-called "eco-friendly" nuclear power, which of course brings down the CO2 count. Now that nuclear is history, so are the numbers. The current numbers are 695 g/kWh. Add 4% like you did and you arrive at 722 g/kWh.
That brings the final (even if you take the 180 km range) total to 140 g/km. A typical fuel-efficient A6 (3.0 TDI, which is the best selling A6 model over here) emits slightly less. A VW Passat CNG station wagon emits less than 120 g/km.

 

[qwk]

Not anymore. As you said, "in 2009". In those days a large percentage of the German energy mix came from so-called "eco-friendly" nuclear power, which of course brings down the CO2 count. Now that nuclear is history, so are the numbers. The current numbers are 695 g/kWh. Add 4% like you did and you arrive at 722 g/kWh.
That brings the final (even if you take the 180 km range) total to 140 g/km. A typical fuel-efficient A6 (3.0 TDI, which is the best selling A6 model over here) emits slightly less. A VW Passat CNG station wagon emits less than 120 g/km.

So what about the oil and filter changes for the ICE, the muffler replacement, the air and fuel filter, I could go on and on. Is anybody counting the emissions of manufacturing, shipping, and disposal of all of these things? What about oil spills? Oil leaks that leave greasy messes in parking spots? Does it matter when that stuff gets into streams and rivers, into our food supply? An EV bypasses all of that mess. You can also start charging a 20 year old EV of of wind or solar whenever one wants. Nobody can do that with an ICE car, whether it's old or new.

Listening to sources that have an agenda instead of thinking for yourself doesn't help anybody.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

In Sweden it’s possible to buy your electricity from an electric utility that produces the electricity from renewable sources only. It would surprise me if that couldn’t be done in Germany as well…

 

[wycolo]

Teslas are SOLAR-ABLE (as well as wind-able of course). I'm waiting for an off-grid solution for the Teslas from the likes of Solar City. Until that happy day I could easily have a grid-tied solar system installed that would generate much more than my present annual usage, but I'm not sufficiently motivated as rates here are low. Public/political attitude developments could easily change all that however.
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[AustinPowers]

So what about the oil and filter changes for the ICE, the muffler replacement, the air and fuel filter, I could go on and on. Is anybody counting the emissions of manufacturing, shipping, and disposal of all of these things? What about oil spills? Oil leaks that leave greasy messes in parking spots? Does it matter when that stuff gets into streams and rivers, into our food supply? An EV bypasses all of that mess. You can also start charging a 20 year old EV of of wind or solar whenever one wants. Nobody can do that with an ICE car, whether it's old or new.

Listening to sources that have an agenda instead of thinking for yourself doesn't help anybody.

First, I am not listening to sources that have an agenda, I am building my own opinion. I am just trying to be realistic enough to see EVs for what they are (at least at the moment).
The Model S in particular is on the one hand a marvellous technological achievement, lightyears ahead of any EV competition. It is great fun to drive, and surely better for the environment than a standard gas guzzler. Absolutely no argument about these facts from me.

But when I compare it to fuel-efficient gas or Diesel cars of comparable size and interior volume like the ones I mentioned (as well as many others), it just doesn't fare much better environmentally. Of course one can buy green electricity here, but the majority of people is price-conscious and therefor often buys conventional electricity (which in itself is extremely expensive nowadays). And of course, Model S doesn't need oil changes and all that. But it will eventually need a new battery (which with all its chemicals and rare earth materials is not eco-friendly per se), its production involves large amounts of aluminium (the production of which is almost as eco-unfriendly as the carbon fibre in the i3), the system transmitting the power to the wheels will also need some fluid changes, as will the cooling/heating system for the battery. It's not as if Model S wouldn't need anything that damages the environment over the cause of its life.

Don't get me wrong, as I said I think Model S is a great car. But the thread was about why some Green car award didn't feature EVs. And while that particular award might be influenced by people who have an agenda, on the whole I can see many cars with conventional or hybrid engines at the moment which are at least equally environmentally friendly as any EV.

And if you take the monetary factor into account (many car awards do), then EVs (any one of them) at the moment are only for idealists, because the premium you have to pay is just too high for EVs to be a suitable alternative for the masses. And that is what will be important, getting the majority of people to move to environmentally friendly cars, not just people like you and me who are priviledged enough to be able to even think about getting an EV (or installing solar power / wind power etc. at one's home) at present versus sometime in the future when EVs become affordable.

 

[wycolo]

@AustinPowers: Go beyond the few individuals who are for whatever reason capable of having solar & wind systems installed on premises. Consider that utilities should be installing massive solar/wind plants everywhere they possibly can. BLM (public) lands in western US have millions of hectares available for this use. Transmission lines, DC, can carry massive power long distances. Raw materials for panels or boilers are getting cheaper and technology is constantly improving. But only jurisdictions under duress, like Las Vegas, NV, are actually taking serious steps in this direction. The rest of the utilities continue to combust whatever the energy companies supply them with, i.e. business as usual.
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[AustinPowers]

@AustinPowers: Go beyond the few individuals who are for whatever reason capable of having solar & wind systems installed on premises. Consider that utilities should be installing massive solar/wind plants everywhere they possibly can. BLM (public) lands in western US have millions of hectares available for this use. Transmission lines, DC, can carry massive power long distances.

You are absolutely right, ideally utilities should do exactly that. But consider also that in a small country like here in Germany, this is not as easily possible. Land is not as freely available, planning new power lines can take decades, and even when they are finally planned, then groups of nature activists file suits against such projects (new power lines, wind rotors, pump-reservoir lakes, solar-panels over hectares of land) to delay them as long as possible or better still stop them. You ask why they do that? Because when you ask people over here if they want their energy coming from renewable sources, most say YES. But when it comes to building something in front of their homes, towns or in their neighbouring nature reserve, they all say, YES, but not HERE!

 

[VolkerP]

commonly known as NIMBY = Not In My Backyard: widespread opposition against infrastructure projects.

Whereas rooftop solar has taken Germany in a rush. The citizens of many communities turned down their opposing point of against wind power, as soon as they could participate in the financial results (strange, you know?).

And vast power lines are no longer necessary when we'll have some serious grid storage capacity. Existing power lines cannot transport wind peak power production from north Germany to the south, but can handle the average power demand quite well.
Adding more power lines would benefit offshore wind parks in the North Sea and power trading across national borders, both lobbied for by the existing power corporations. They are not necessary in a decentralized solar electric economy.