Going crazy about Performance brakes? [Tesla using caliper covers on rear brakes of Y performance after supplier switch]

[osunick]

ABS takes over because tires can't handle the grip. @osunick is correct in his statement
Brakes - OEM or not - are only as good as tires are. Performance brakes eliminate brake fade. There is more to it than just calipers and disks though,
Fluid, brake lines are also major factor.

So - Tesla's performance package is indeed for show

Yeah it's high school physics, sliding friction (mu) is less than static friction. Part and parcel of maintaining directional control is maintaining grip on the surface. The only time where ABS might not help is in deep snow. ABS threshold brakes for you, every pro race driver would take ABS if it wasn't banned. Maybe in 1986, the 3 channel systems didn't have enough compute to beat a pro driver, but now they are definitely good. Factory Tesla brakes for all but the plaid are overspeced because Tesla chassis engineers are a bunch of autocross nerds, maybe having fancy brembo fronts on every single car reduces the need to stock brake parts because they effectively are lifetime parts, but it's hilariously overspeced from the factory for street use.

Changing pads and rotors may affect your perception due to a change in bite, but having both an MY and M3, the MY is a much larger, heavier car (and the MYP wheel/tire combo is for show, not go/stop, and is criminally heavy) and I suspect a large part of why the car 'feels' different.

 

[popdakebin]

My wife's 2018 standard range Model 3 has brakes with much higher bite than my 2023 MYP. The pedal feel on the MYP is very soft. I have to hit the brakes hard to get some type of response. There is no way you call these performance brakes and makes me not want to be "spirited" while driving.

 

[Konicom04]

Since I cancelled the Tesla insurance, spiritual driving is slowly back. Maybe not to the extend I used to do with my M3 or the SS ( each ride to work was a qualifying run) - but still.

Yesterday, in the MYP, gunned it to make the green arrow ( don't worry all you speeding critics - the 4 lane road was completely empty) , and found myself holding tight on braking thinking .. ohhhh *sugar* - wont make the turn.
Weak weak brakes.

Then - once i arrived home compared the two - M3P has completely different disks ( rotors) that look heavier and beefier, while MYP's look plain standard.
One would think the AutoCross Nerd designers at tesla ( as @osunick eloquently called them ) would actually equip the MYP with stronger brakes since the car is heavier.

Will do the same experiment next time I get to abuse the wife's M3P

Needless to say - I do feel duped

 

[osunick]

Since I cancelled the Tesla insurance, spiritual driving is slowly back. Maybe not to the extend I used to do with my M3 or the SS ( each ride to work was a qualifying run) - but still.

Yesterday, in the MYP, gunned it to make the green arrow ( don't worry all you speeding critics - the 4 lane road was completely empty) , and found myself holding tight on braking thinking .. ohhhh *sugar* - wont make the turn.
Weak weak brakes.

Then - once i arrived home compared the two - M3P has completely different disks ( rotors) that look heavier and beefier, while MYP's look plain standard.
One would think the AutoCross Nerd designers at tesla ( as @osunick eloquently called them ) would actually equip the MYP with stronger brakes since the car is heavier.

Will do the same experiment next time I get to abuse the wife's M3P

Needless to say - I do feel duped

You are right in the sense that M3P rotors in front are thicker. Rears are the same thickness. They are also different in that M3P has bimetal rotors, which have a steel hat (thinner than iron would be, therefore lighter) that is pressed into an iron ring. The interface is the pie plate scalloping which allows the parts to be pressed together without welding (which would destroy the strength of the rotor). The autocross nerds were definitely focused on autocrossing the 3- I don't know what kind of driving you do in the MYP but the staggered uberturbines, their size, and the downgrade from the PS4S describe a more show than go setup. They are still fine for what 99.9% of these cars are used for. I doubt very much if the brakes weren't hot that the problem was the brakes, but if you have a recent MYP you have all season tires that also don't have a lot of grip at the limit. The only difference this makes is if you're cooking the brakes, which really could only happen with repeated hard braking events within seconds of each other. The MYP is not a track car out of the box, even though they just released track mode on it.

The Tesla actually calculates brake temps based on the stock setup, and I created an app to read this data in real time provided you have a compatible device. You can get my app to get an instrument cluster to see if you're really cooking your brakes in a single thermal event, and if you're not braking from 120 mph or something I doubt you'd lose them in a single application on cold brakes. Check out candash.app or scan my tesla or many of the other apps that let you view this data to get a sense of how many joules you're putting in. MYP already adds 100 of regenerative horsepower into the braking system to help out.

Please just consider that braking and acceleration is essentially the same on both tires. Slamming the brakes shifts your weight forward and you're dumping 600-800 hp into that axle to slow the car, a burnout and a skid are essentially the same thing. Your tires are not designed for what you are doing. M3P has summer performance tires fitted as standard. All cars can brake more quickly than they accelerate and if you're going hot into a corner and feel like you're not going to make it on a braking system that you haven't been slamming repeatedly, if the car didn't decelerate as much as you expected, it's much more likely to be tires than brakes, assuming you were pushing the pedal as hard as you could.

 

[Konicom04]

You are right in the sense that M3P rotors in front are thicker. Rears are the same thickness. They are also different in that M3P has bimetal rotors, which have a steel hat (thinner than iron would be, therefore lighter) that is pressed into an iron ring. The interface is the pie plate scalloping which allows the parts to be pressed together without welding (which would destroy the strength of the rotor). The autocross nerds were definitely focused on autocrossing the 3- I don't know what kind of driving you do in the MYP but the staggered uberturbines, their size, and the downgrade from the PS4S describe a more show than go setup. They are still fine for what 99.9% of these cars are used for. I doubt very much if the brakes weren't hot that the problem was the brakes, but if you have a recent MYP you have all season tires that also don't have a lot of grip at the limit. The only difference this makes is if you're cooking the brakes, which really could only happen with repeated hard braking events within seconds of each other. The MYP is not a track car out of the box, even though they just released track mode on it.

The Tesla actually calculates brake temps based on the stock setup, and I created an app to read this data in real time provided you have a compatible device. You can get my app to get an instrument cluster to see if you're really cooking your brakes in a single thermal event, and if you're not braking from 120 mph or something I doubt you'd lose them in a single application on cold brakes. Check out candash.app or scan my tesla or many of the other apps that let you view this data to get a sense of how many joules you're putting in. MYP already adds 100 of regenerative horsepower into the braking system to help out.

Please just consider that braking and acceleration is essentially the same on both tires. Slamming the brakes shifts your weight forward and you're dumping 600-800 hp into that axle to slow the car, a burnout and a skid are essentially the same thing. Your tires are not designed for what you are doing. M3P has summer performance tires fitted as standard. All cars can brake more quickly than they accelerate and if you're going hot into a corner and feel like you're not going to make it on a braking system that you haven't been slamming repeatedly, if the car didn't decelerate as much as you expected, it's much more likely to be tires than brakes, assuming you were pushing the pedal as hard as you could.

Excellent info! thanks for the write up .

MYP is my daily, and would never really consider tracking it.
Even the M3P would not be my choice ( i need gears, tho curiosity is there ) . The rant was just an observation, I was just surprised with its lack of "bite".
Clearly - should've tested the braking performance in more controlled manner

I am not foreign to performance driving, have done years of Autocrossing in my youth, many track days since in the M3, and about to do my second endurance race in a Miata ( ChampCar organisation).

I definitely will check out your app. Teslas fascinate me in so many levels - sounds like the app is another layer to add

 

[popdakebin]

You are right in the sense that M3P rotors in front are thicker. Rears are the same thickness. They are also different in that M3P has bimetal rotors, which have a steel hat (thinner than iron would be, therefore lighter) that is pressed into an iron ring. The interface is the pie plate scalloping which allows the parts to be pressed together without welding (which would destroy the strength of the rotor). The autocross nerds were definitely focused on autocrossing the 3- I don't know what kind of driving you do in the MYP but the staggered uberturbines, their size, and the downgrade from the PS4S describe a more show than go setup. They are still fine for what 99.9% of these cars are used for. I doubt very much if the brakes weren't hot that the problem was the brakes, but if you have a recent MYP you have all season tires that also don't have a lot of grip at the limit. The only difference this makes is if you're cooking the brakes, which really could only happen with repeated hard braking events within seconds of each other. The MYP is not a track car out of the box, even though they just released track mode on it.

The Tesla actually calculates brake temps based on the stock setup, and I created an app to read this data in real time provided you have a compatible device. You can get my app to get an instrument cluster to see if you're really cooking your brakes in a single thermal event, and if you're not braking from 120 mph or something I doubt you'd lose them in a single application on cold brakes. Check out candash.app or scan my tesla or many of the other apps that let you view this data to get a sense of how many joules you're putting in. MYP already adds 100 of regenerative horsepower into the braking system to help out.

Please just consider that braking and acceleration is essentially the same on both tires. Slamming the brakes shifts your weight forward and you're dumping 600-800 hp into that axle to slow the car, a burnout and a skid are essentially the same thing. Your tires are not designed for what you are doing. M3P has summer performance tires fitted as standard. All cars can brake more quickly than they accelerate and if you're going hot into a corner and feel like you're not going to make it on a braking system that you haven't been slamming repeatedly, if the car didn't decelerate as much as you expected, it's much more likely to be tires than brakes, assuming you were pushing the pedal as hard as you could.

That just reinforces my thoughts. The MYP should be comparable to the M3P, albeit larger and heavier. I do not consider "performance" as only straight line acceleration; It is all around performance. If I am buying performance, I want what others aren't using it for, which is to drive it hard. What is the point of giving me speed if I cannot stop the car just as hard to take it into a corner? I wouldn't be able to drive this thing fast without thinking I am going to die on the next turn.

 

[lolsups]

Now that the rear brake calipers are the same mando brand that are on the LR but with caliper covers and paint, has anyone installed the OEM rear from the ‘23 MYP on a LR? Wondering if they are interchangeable or not.

 

[osunick]

Now that the rear brake calipers are the same mando brand that are on the LR but with caliper covers and paint, has anyone installed the OEM rear from the ‘23 MYP on a LR? Wondering if they are interchangeable or not.

The braking systems are now 100% identical except for color and rear covers now I think. Just get the covers if you care, nobody will see the gray caliper underneath.

 

[lolsups]

The braking systems are now 100% identical except for color and rear covers now I think. Just get the covers if you care, nobody will see the gray caliper underneath.

Not a fan of the aftermarket caliper covers. I prefer OEM parts. Was going to try and source a set of rear calipers from eBay if they popped on there for a decent price. Probably will just end up painting the stock calipers anyways.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Yes, if I were to buy fake dress-up Performance brakes for my LR, I'd certainly want genuine OEM fake dress-up Performance brakes.

teasing but not lying. I said if.

Instead, I'm considering a different color of plastic shells to encase my Gemini alloy spoke rims, that are presently encased in black plastic shells. Caliper shells will have to wait until it's time to rotate the tires.

 

[rotarypower101]

The braking systems are now 100% identical except for color and rear covers now I think. Just get the covers if you care, nobody will see the gray caliper underneath.

Front calipers also?

If anyone knows is that true of the Model 3 Performance/LR now also?

 

[osunick]

Front calipers also?

If anyone knows is that true of the Model 3 Performance/LR now also?

I have a 2023 M3P as well. M3P still has an upgraded braking system relative to the LR. Larger diameter and 'dual cast' which means steel hats with iron rings, press fit together, hence the pie plate appearance of the rotor hats. Lower mass than all iron for just a bit more cost. Still has the goofy brembo single piston rears that cosplay as fixed calipers.

 

[osunick]

Front calipers also?

If anyone knows is that true of the Model 3 Performance/LR now also?

Front calipers have a different part number on the Y between LR and P due to color but they are identical in every respect. At this point enough MYPs have been wrecked you can just get "real" performance calipers on ebay and bolt them in (and bleed them plz). Rear OEM caliper covers and you can say you have upgraded to performance brakes. Rear rotors were always the same diameter between LR and P but with the brembos the rear rotors were 2mm thicker for I assume better thermal mass, though in reality the rear brakes do almost nothing for most drivers, most regen on the Y and 3 is rear axle because of the permanent magnet motor- I have a real time monitor on my car so I can see which axle is doing what.

More here: Model Y Performance no longer receives Brembo rear calipers - let's br

 

[GoferBroke]

Removed the faux Brembo covers during a tire rotation, single allen head threaded into the caliper.

 

[Resist]

After getting my new 2023 Model Y Performance last week and learning than Tesla changed the rear brake to the same ones in the Long Range Model Y, and just put a cover over them, I'm kind of pissed. The Tesla ordering page still says performance brakes and that's what I though I was getting. All these hardware downgrades lately are getting out of hand, removed radar, removed ultra sonic sensors, removed passenger lumbar support, removed mobile connector, metal scroll wheel replaced rubber scroll wheel and so on. Yes, we did get some other good hardware changes like the heat pump, heated steering wheel, rear cargo space cover, double pain front side glass, tinted rear side/rear glass. But paying for performance brakes and not getting performance brakes, is a lie and false advertising. And no, painting brakes red does not make them performance brakes! There needs to be something done to make this right.

 

[Eto Demerzel]

Go to Tesla. No one here can do anything about your complaint.
You knew about the rest of your complaints before you bought the car. As well, the brakes are well documented online. They just put covers on the rears, same as LR brakes.

Fronts? Are they different or the same Brembos as LR's with covers?

 

[Resist]

Actually I didn't know the rears were covered and where the same as the LR Model Y rear brakes, when I bought it. So who at Tesla do I complain to? The dealership can't do anything about it. Tesla doesn't have a complaint hotline. The front brakes are also the same as the LR Model Y, but don't have covers and are just painted red. And that's fine if Tesla feels these brakes are good enough on their "Performance" cars, but then don't list them as Performance Brakes, which is part of the added cost of this Performance car. They don't like the Long Range Model Y as having "Performance" brakes, when they are the exact same brakes, just not painted red!

 

[Resist]

One thing we don't know is if the brake pads and rotors are the same, but if there is an improvement difference then it would be okay. But Tesla doesn't publish that information and why there is concern over all of this.

And now to top it all off Tesla just lowered the price of Model 3 and Y's. I paid $52,720 for my Model Y Performance and thought it was a good deal, now that same car is $52,490. Oy Vey Elon! But at least I got the free FSD transfer to the new car, which you can't do now.

 

[Ruffles]

Red makes things faster = performance . When buying a Tesla, you have to decide for yourself if the car you are getting today is worth the price you are paying today. If so, buy it and don't look back because there will be changes in hardware and price. Others will get a better deal than you. Don't let their good fortune rob you of your enjoyment of the car. Don't compare, just enjoy . The list of improvements I missed out on is long but my MYP still puts a smile on my face every time I look at it - let alone drive it!

 

[dmh444]

I get the frustration with the brakes. I'd be the same way.

I don't get why so many complain about price decreases in general. Yah it sucks, but it also sucked for people who got their cars last December before the MASSIVE price decrease in January. Elon's dropped/changed prices what like 3-4x this year alone already so there shouldn't be any surprises on how erratic he is. I got my MYP back in mid-2022 for $64K MSRP. @Ruffles said it best; I felt my car was "worth" $64K at time of purchase. Yah it sucks it's only "worth" $52K today, but I love my car every time I drive it (albeit there's probably TOO many Teslas on the road nowadays) and plan to keep it for many year, so absolutely no complaints on my end at all.

On a side note, does anyone know when Tesla made the change to have MYP brakes be the same as LR? Don't really care, but just curious what my May 2022 model has.