Funny to see what the “other M3” owners think.

[MXWing]

@lolachampcar inspired me to do a quick google on “performance model 3 vs M3” and see what a bimmer forum thinks.

I was very entertained. There is a definite breaking in the ranks starting to form.

M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

In no way do I endorse bashing M3’s as that would have been my car were it not for Tesla. You would have to be a real loser to make an account over there as a Tesla owner and no intention to buy a M3 just to troll.

All the arguments are funny.

“Don’t care how fast, if it doesn’t make noise or smell gas I don’t want it”.

I got no speeding tickets in my Tesla.. quiet assassin...

“I can’t buy a Tesla because the owners are annoying self righteous moronic tards.”

I don’t disagree completely here.. I can relate because it’s like me and Apple products. Love the product, hate the users.

Anyone coming from a BMW M3 or Audi S5 or some other badass old school performance auto? I bet it’s awkward to be brothers and sisters with the Tesla family.

 

[Adam3]

r/teslamotors - My impression of the Performance Model 3, coming from an F80 M3 driver.

 

[MXWing]

r/teslamotors - My impression of the Performance Model 3, coming from an F80 M3 driver.

Fun factor of zero to post in r/teslamotors. Now if it was crossposted in https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/

that is where magic happens.

 

[seattlite2004]

r/teslamotors - My impression of the Performance Model 3, coming from an F80 M3 driver.

"It's a fantastic car, not perfect by any stretch and does not fully capture the appeal of a M3 or an Alfa Romeo GF (I'll still take the latter 2 on a nice weekend). But if I can only own one car at a time, the P3D would be the way to go. But personally I am leaning toward non-P dual motor one and save $10-15k. That should be enough to get me heated and powered seats on the Porsche 718GTS I've been configuring for a while now...

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, the P3D can really, really use a HUD. When you can go from 0-jail in like 4 seconds, you really don't want to have to take your eyes off the road to look at the speedo while taking a turn at [censored] mph."
​

I wonder if he's getting the manual gearbox instead of PDK. I drove my buddies 981 GTS manual (previous gen with the NA 6) and it was sooooo freakin fun to drive....I miss the growl, burps, pops, and of course rolling the gears. He's gonna have a really fun stable.

 

[DrDabbles]

“I can’t buy a Tesla because the owners are annoying self righteous moronic tards.”

That's a bit rich coming from a bimmer forum member.

Anyone coming from a BMW M3 or Audi S5 or some other badass old school performance auto? I bet it’s awkward to be brothers and sisters with the Tesla family.

I'm coming from a modified 2004 Subaru WRX STI. It's loud, it smells like gas, it's quick, and I've been an off-and-on member of several Subaru forums. I've got some friends from those communities, and my tuner is very active in the BMW and Mercedes tuning scenes as well as Subarus. I've had a lot of conversations with people that aren't "believers" in battery powered cars. Some of them have good reasons, some of them have ridiculous reasons. I'm still buying the Model 3.

As a side note, my alternative to the Model 3, if I hadn't liked what I saw when it was announced, was a Mercedes C4xx 4-matic (the equivalent of the C43 4-matic now). It's about the same price, it's about the same market level as the P3D+ I've ordered, and it's a fun fast car to drive. But I'm very glad I made the choice to go with the Tesla and wait a couple years for delivery.

 

[Shizzrock]

@lolachampcar inspired me to do a quick google on “performance model 3 vs M3” and see what a bimmer forum thinks.

I was very entertained. There is a definite breaking in the ranks starting to form.

M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

In no way do I endorse bashing M3’s as that would have been my car were it not for Tesla. You would have to be a real loser to make an account over there as a Tesla owner and no intention to buy a M3 just to troll.

All the arguments are funny.

“Don’t care how fast, if it doesn’t make noise or smell gas I don’t want it”.

I got no speeding tickets in my Tesla.. quiet assassin...

“I can’t buy a Tesla because the owners are annoying self righteous moronic tards.”

I don’t disagree completely here.. I can relate because it’s like me and Apple products. Love the product, hate the users.

Anyone coming from a BMW M3 or Audi S5 or some other badass old school performance auto? I bet it’s awkward to be brothers and sisters with the Tesla family.

I'm going to be trading in my modded S4 for a P3D. I am a little nervous about the move, specifically concerning fit and finish. The Tesla costs more than a loaded S5 sportback, so my buddies think I'm crazy. The S4 is a great car, but I do believe electric is the future and am optimistic that the track mode handling will be as great as expected. The S4 is pretty similar in a lot of the specs, weighs 3900 pounds, does a 12 second 1/4 mile (it's modded before the pedants post the stock times), has roughly the same cargo space if you exclude the frunk. I think the technology on the Tesla will be a huge improvement, just hope it holds together as well as my Audi has.

 

[DrDabbles]

... the track mode handling will be as great as expected.

Do we know for sure that Track Mode will be available on the P3D and not just the P3D+? Has there been any clarification on that yet?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm still of the opinion that the BMW M3 will destroy the Model 3 at the track. So they'll always have that until the P++ come out

As an auto enthusiast the BMW M3 is the "M3". It's so confusing when people call the Model 3 that.

 

[DrDabbles]

I'm still of the opinion that the BMW M3 will destroy the Model 3 at the track.

That will be the case until people start putting larger heat exchangers on the P3D+ and larger radiators to get rid of the battery cell heat. At the point you can quickly use the heat pump to get rid of pack heat quicker than it builds up, the Model 3 will be able to continually lap until the pack is drained.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That will be the case until people start putting larger heat exchangers on the P3D+ and larger radiators to get rid of the battery cell heat. At the point you can quickly use the heat pump to get rid of pack head quicker than it builds up, the Model 3 will be able to continually lap until the pack is drained.

I'm talking single lap time. The BMW M3 is lighter, has wider tires, is quicker once you get past 60mph (all the time on a race track), has a sophisticated limited slip differential, and stiffer suspension. It just doesn't seem possible.
If we're talking modified vehicles then the disparity will be even larger since without emissions and reliability concerns you can make massive power. Weight savings are also more significant since you don't have a massive battery to lug around.

 

[MXWing]

I'm still of the opinion that the BMW M3 will destroy the Model 3 at the track. So they'll always have that until the P++ come out

As an auto enthusiast the BMW M3 is the "M3". It's so confusing when people call the Model 3 that.

I didn't like the underline DUAL MOTOR badge on my 3 so thinking of getting this one... what do you think?

Out of tradition and deference, yes we should not use M3 and Model 3 interchangeably .

With that said, you can possibly Google M3 in a decade and the first results will be Tesla.

 

[insaneoctane]

Thanks for this thread. Quite entertaining!. Here's some fun ones:

• "I cant daily drive a car that makes no sound"

• 11 years ago: "It doesn't have a real keyboard. iPhone is a toy and I am keeping my Blackberry."

• "I don't dispute anything that has been said here, but for me, any Tesla is a hard pass for a number of reasons. First (and most importantly), they are FUGLY. Second, they do not burn petrol. Third, they whine instead of growling, grunting, thunking and screeching. Fourth, Elon Musk. Fifth, They are built on corporate welfare based upon BS climate change alarmism. Sixth, they have no soul. Seventh, Elon Musk. Eighth, they can't be quickly and conveniently refueled. Ninth, The people who drive them have a false sense of moral superiority that I just can't be associated with on any level.
  I don't care how fast they are or how well they handle, they do nothing for me at all. I can't stand them. And they are all around me."

• "Having a multiple gear transmission does help, but it will not alleviate this fundamental weakness of electric powertrains.
  The Tesla Model 3 only has a single gear transmission though..."

• "0-60 in 3.5 seconds
  0-ugly ... Real f****n quick"

EDIT: Just noticed this was my post # 2,000!!

 

[MXWing]

I imagine it would be true for more than just me but

Time spent in suburbia, commuting, hauling passengers and groceries > time at Laguna Seca.

I would wager the above is also true for all BMW M3 drivers. Rare would be the dedicated BMW M3 that does nothing but track.

Objectively, that makes the Tesla Model 3 superior than the BMW M3.

One of the "things" about a BMW M3 is you were faster than 99% of the cars on the road.

The "thing" about a Tesla 3P is you'd be faster than 99% of BMW's on the road. I'm sure that's hard to swallow for the diehards.

An E46 M3 was a car I always longed for but drove the slowest M3 - the Mazda 3 for a long long time to get my other things in order.

Tesla caught up just in time to catch me and I'm so thrilled to have the M3 of the future.

 

[DrDabbles]

I'm talking single lap time. The BMW M3 is lighter, has wider tires, is quicker once you get past 60mph (all the time on a race track), has a sophisticated limited slip differential, and stiffer suspension. It just doesn't seem possible.
If we're talking modified vehicles then the disparity will be even larger since without emissions and reliability concerns you can make massive power. Weight savings are also more significant since you don't have a massive battery to lug around.

Modified cars aren't really where we're doing here though. Because you could modify a Model 3 to reduce pack weight by removing cells and range, and instead focus on speed. You could also replace fuses and drive unit controllers to make the vehicle put down more power. In a Model 3, that just entails new circuitry. In an M3 we're talking about blueprinting and balancing, porting and polishing everything, likely over-sizing valves, probably going to need to sleeve the cylinders to make sure you don't crack your block, replacing head studs, upgrading the induction, replacing the headers and turbo-back exhaust sections, etc. Plus you still need the tuning that the Model 3 would need software wise.

Just to boil it down to its most basic level, if you want a car for a race track, that's a pretty specific purpose-built product. You can spend a small fortune and convert any vehicle into a track monster, and it will absolutely suck everywhere else. I don't like getting me teeth rattled out, so I have a street performance suspension setup in my car now. I don't like having to split my block and inspect and replace bearings and make sure journals aren't totally destroyed, so I'm not running idiot-level power in my car. I drive it all year 'round, so I haven't slammed it to the ground. I could do all of those things, and get into nah-fahk-you, nah fahk-you arguments all day. But instead, I have the car for the purpose I want and I've made the changes I like, and I'm happy.

At a guess, 90% of the M3 owners I know have been to a track exactly once, and they suck at it. They want to smoke their tires at stop lights to impress themselves, they want exhaust burble to wake the neighbors at 2am when they come home from the bars, and other than that, none of the changes they make to their cars improve it in any way whatsoever. Meanwhile I know several very experienced people with amateur racing careers that could smoke them on a track with a base-model 3-series.

 

[SteveTack]

Out of tradition and deference, yes we should not use M3 and Model 3 interchangeably .

With that said, you can possibly Google M3 in a decade and the first results will be Tesla.

I wonder how Mazda3 fans feel about that.

 

[MXWing]

^^^^ This guy knows the score. You can respect that honesty.

This example can probably be used for a lot of things, but I'm going to target it to BMW owning Americans.

How many of them can actually find Nurburgring on a map?

or know what Deutschland means?

or even have a passport to leave the confines of their continent?

I wonder how Mazda3 fans feel about that.

I always said I drove an M3...people would get impressed and then I'd drop the hammer about it being a Mazda 3. Many laughs to be had.

No insecurity of driving an economy vehicle while getting other more important affairs in order.

 

[SteveTack]

Second, they do not burn petrol. Third, they whine instead of growling, grunting, thunking and screeching.

It's hard to take someone like that seriously. It's like someone defending coal-powered locomotives way past their prime, like everything has to be exactly like that or it's just no good. "If it doesn't belch out huge plumes of black death, it's a hard stop!" How self-limiting can you get?

 

[Shizzrock]

Modified cars aren't really where we're doing here though. Because you could modify a Model 3 to reduce pack weight by removing cells and range, and instead focus on speed. You could also replace fuses and drive unit controllers to make the vehicle put down more power. In a Model 3, that just entails new circuitry. In an M3 we're talking about blueprinting and balancing, porting and polishing everything, likely over-sizing valves, probably going to need to sleeve the cylinders to make sure you don't crack your block, replacing head studs, upgrading the induction, replacing the headers and turbo-back exhaust sections, etc. Plus you still need the tuning that the Model 3 would need software wise.

Just to boil it down to its most basic level, if you want a car for a race track, that's a pretty specific purpose-built product. You can spend a small fortune and convert any vehicle into a track monster, and it will absolutely suck everywhere else. I don't like getting me teeth rattled out, so I have a street performance suspension setup in my car now. I don't like having to split my block and inspect and replace bearings and make sure journals aren't totally destroyed, so I'm not running idiot-level power in my car. I drive it all year 'round, so I haven't slammed it to the ground. I could do all of those things, and get into nah-fahk-you, nah fahk-you arguments all day. But instead, I have the car for the purpose I want and I've made the changes I like, and I'm happy.

At a guess, 90% of the M3 owners I know have been to a track exactly once, and they suck at it. They want to smoke their tires at stop lights to impress themselves, they want exhaust burble to wake the neighbors at 2am when they come home from the bars, and other than that, none of the changes they make to their cars improve it in any way whatsoever. Meanwhile I know several very experienced people with amateur racing careers that could smoke them on a track with a base-model 3-series.

All you need to mod an M3 is a tune and exhaust though. That's the beauty of forced induction. A tune and exhaust will get you over a hundred horsepower. Blueprinting and porting and polishing, cams, etc. are usually done on naturally aspirated American V8s

 

[MXWing]

Third, they whine instead of growling, grunting, thunking and screeching

Sounds like a great setup for a porn parody of Disney Cars.

 

[DrDabbles]

All you need to mod an M3 is a tune and exhaust though. That's the beauty of forced induction. A tune and exhaust will get you over a hundred horsepower. Blueprinting and porting and polishing, cams, etc. are usually done on naturally aspirated American V8s

A bit like all you need to increase performance of a Model 3 is software. Increase the allowed power, and there you go. Instantly more torque. The beauty of forced induction, which I'm intimately familiar with, quickly drops off as you approach the limits of the engine you're forcing that induction into. So then you get into porting and polishing, changing cam profiles, replacing the exhaust manifolds and turbo-back sections. The cost very quickly spirals. And you quickly run into problems with detonation, you get out of the turbo's efficiency band, your intercooler starts coming up short, you need to replace fuel pumps, rails, and injectors, etc.

I currently own a modified turbo car, so I'm not talking out of total ignorance here. It's not as easy as "increase boost, everything will be fine!" very quickly. Modern engines are carefully balanced and well designed for optimum power vs. efficiency. Also, you're going to have issues passing emissions tests in a lot of states with a newer, highly modified vehicle.

From your own example, adding let's say 100WHP by replacing the exhaust and adding a tune. My local tuner charges just under $800 for the custom tune. That includes Dyno time as well as the map itself. For an Active Auto Werks exhaust (downpipe, mid-pipe, and rear section) you're looking around $4-5k for parts. AA says their full exhaust is good for about a max gain of 18 WHP and 30 WTQ. For almost $5k. But let's say the tune adds an additional 90 WHP/70 lb. ft. of torque. That's about the absolute limit claimed by most tuners without further modification, but let's say it's achievable for you. You've spent $5k for 100WHP and about 100WTQ improvement. That's an _awful_ return on value for tuning dollars. $50/hp is just terrible. You can get much better dollar-to-performance ratios out of much cheaper cars and have a lot more fun hooning them around town. Because BMW aren't slouches. They aren't producing a car with a ton of power remaining on the table from the factory. It's a _performance_ car, they release it for the _performance_ crowd, and that's that.

For the claim that cams, porting and polishing and blueprinting aren't done on turbo'd cars, I have a build sheet for my car I'd love to show you. Porting and polishing is especially good on forced induction systems because it eliminates all of the small areas that turbulence is introduced. Less turbulent air flows faster, produces better A/F mixing in cylinders, allows for better scavenging, etc. Cam profiles are crucial for scavenging and allowing higher boost applications and modified cylinders to better handle an intake charge or better vent an exhaust charge. Again, all of these parameters are carefully balanced and changing any one parameter out of its zone of optimal efficiency makes the vehicle worse in every way.