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Full Self-Driving - feels like a long way off to me...

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So, you think that EAP will be "FSD light", basically a software limited FSD. In other words, Tesla will use the same FSD code for both, just software limit some of the features for cars with EAP only? I do agree with you that could very well happen. Yes, it would definitely make sense for Tesla to do that.

This is 100% my opinion... EAP and FSD will use the same code/system/etc., just that EAP will not have all the FSD features enabled. If this is actually the case I feel like I'm not far off in my expectation that FSD is a long way off. Maybe we'll soon get some FSD features that allow the car to stop at stop signs, red lights, take some turns in ideal conditions, etc., but to get to the point where we don't have human controls or where we get in and spout out a destination and the car takes us there with no human intervention is in my opinion not going to happen anytime soon.
 
The news about V9 and the new powerful computer chip for FSD should make us all more optimistic about FSD:
Tesla claims to have ‘world’s most advanced computer for autonomous driving’ with Autopilot 3.0 update coming next year

I definitely think that Tesla will achieve FSD.

It sounds great, and I too think they will achieve FSD eventually but I’m skeptical on the timeline... I still think it’s a long way off. Time will tell the tale... let’s revisit this thread annually and see how they’re doing from year to year.
 
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It sounds great, and I too think they will achieve FSD eventually but I’m skeptical on the timeline... I still think it’s a long way off. Time will tell the tale... let’s revisit this thread annually and see how they’re doing from year to year.
It will depend on how laws are written, I can envision FSD on federal highways, then state highways, freeways and lastly city by city streets.
 
On a parallel note:

Tesla is adding Atari games to the in-car display with next software update

Tesla is starting to seek full time employment for game developers. Most publications just took this as a fun little tidbit, reiterating that you would have to be parked in order to play them.

Don't know the laws around it, but I'm confident this is a soft signal that FSD has seen some nice progress. Laws wise, being able to play video games via phone and linked to the tablet with people in the same car would facilitate a lot of fun interactions, such as playing a board game via your phone and the board showing up on the main vehicle screen when FSD is level 5.
 
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Am I the only one that feels like full self-driving is going to be a long, long way off? Every day I drive my Model S (which I love) and I use autopilot on the highway (which is useful), but I see things every day that make me say "full self-driving... I just don't see it happening anytime soon." I see exit lanes on the highway in rush hour where exiting traffic unofficially splits and makes a single lane two lanes... one for each direction... is my FSD car going to make me the a-hole and sit perfectly in the middle? I drive through my neighborhood which has no lane markings on the road, nothing at all... no lines to separate one direction from another and not even lines highlighting the edge of the road, and I think to myself... how would FSD work in this situation? Scan the road and realize which half to stay on? What if a car is parked in the street (which happens all the time)? What if I get to a 4 way stop sign and there is an aggressive driver who doesn't wait their turn, or a timid driver who starts going after I start? What if we go at the same time? When I'm making a turn through an intersection where there are two turn lanes and I'm in the inner lane, but the folks in the outer lane don't go wide enough and the inner lane cars have to drive over the lines separating the road? Is my FSD car going to try to squeeze them over to make them be perfectly in their proper lane? What if I'm on the highway and need to exit but no one opens up space for me to get in? Personally I might try to force someone to let me over by inching very close to the gap between one car and the next hoping that they back off a bit... how would FSD do that if no one budged?

These are just a small amount of things I see on a daily basis. 90%, maybe even 95% of driving is easy... it's that 5-10% that's tricky where you have to bend/break the traffic rules a little bit to deal with something... how is FSD going to deal with all of that? Maybe if most cars were all FSD and they "talked" to one another it would make it a little easier, but obviously that's not the case.

Not just Tesla, but a lot of companies want to see FSD come into reality. For a lot of companies, it would mean they could get rid of a lot of employees (creating a lot of unemployment). The automotive industry see self driving as the big thing that will generate a bonanza of car sales (mostly to fleets) so they want to see it too.

However there are two huge hurdles to get over. First the software needs to deal with a plethora of edge conditions, some of which are very tricky. There are legions of programmers trying to solve those problems in many companies right now. Then there is convincing regulators, who are naturally conservative about change, especially radical change, to accept that enough edge conditions have been covered that FSD with no human at the controls is significantly better than what a human can do.

What Tesla's AP and the GM system on the Cadillac CT6 do is among the easier problems to solve. Self driving when you can track a car in front of you (stop and go traffic) and open highway are both relatively easy to deal with. Tesla's approach is different from GM's. GM's system relies on complete mapping of every inch of every road where the system is certified. Tesla's system tries to figure out what's going on around the car and make decisions based on that.

There are pluses and minuses to both approaches. GM's is more reliable where the data is good. Hackers could screw everything up by altering the data the cars rely on. I assume GM's cars download chunks of route data so the car doesn't need to be connected 24/7, but it does need to check in to get route information because roads can change.

Tesla's system deals with the road the way it is the day you drive it, but the sensors can be blinded by the sun or other weather conditions. There are also holes where AP decides to do the wrong thing.

Self flying aircraft have been around since the 90s. Commercial airliners fly from point A to B with the pilots just sitting and watching the computer work. They often take over for for take offs and landings, but the automated systems can handle that too in many conditions.

But the edge conditions with commercial aircraft are significantly fewer than with land transport. The only time aircraft tend to be close enough to collide is near airports and there are multiple layers of systems to keep them apart. If something does go wrong, all commercial pilots are significantly better trained than the average car driver and they run through many disaster scenarios.

I'm not sure FSD with no driver to take over will ever become approved universally approved. Commercial aircraft are much further along in the tech and they still require two pilots.

Car makers have been pushing hard to replace rear view mirrors with cameras for over a decade and so far they have only been approved in one jurisdiction. And using cameras instead of mirrors is far more minor than FSD.

It is possible that fully autonomous cars with no driver on controlled, limited routes might be approved, but being able to do FSD everywhere might not.

The future doesn't always look the way people predict. Back in the 50s there were lots of predictions of flying cars, and it never happened because it turned out to be more difficult to do in any kind of cost effective way.
 
Why? FSD is not a hardware problem, its a software problem..

I would say it’s both... even with the best software you still need the right hardware to process it effectively. Think of all the PC games that can run a super high frame rate, but if you don’t have the right hardware to run them it’s choppy as hell. The reverse is true also... even with the best, fastest hardware if you’re software is not there... well then youre not going to be able to do what you want to do.

I’m sure it’s more software than hardware by a long shot, but obviously Tesla feels like their hardware needs an upgrade too in order to move things along.
 
I would say it’s both... even with the best software you still need the right hardware to process it effectively. Think of all the PC games that can run a super high frame rate, but if you don’t have the right hardware to run them it’s choppy as hell. The reverse is true also... even with the best, fastest hardware if you’re software is not there... well then youre not going to be able to do what you want to do.

I’m sure it’s more software than hardware by a long shot, but obviously Tesla feels like their hardware needs an upgrade too in order to move things along.

Why? FSD is not a hardware problem, its a software problem..

As @Theflash95 correctly explained, you need the right hardware AND the right software. I would just add that one of the big criticisms against Tesla has been that the AP2 hardware was not good enough for FSD. Specifically, there were some FSD 'experts' that have said that the AP2 computer was not powerful enough to handle FSD computations. They also criticize Tesla for not using LIDAR. So there was definitely a hardware component to the problem. This news that Tesla has developed a much more powerful Computer chip for their cars, should take care of at least one part of the hardware criticism. Obviously, the LIDAR question is still up in the air but at least the CPU should be good enough now. So it does address most of the hardware part of FSD.
 
Once FSD is working and approved for unsupervised use, there will be two main differences between EAP and FSD.

For vehicles with FSD activated, the software will operate without requiring "hands on wheel" or that there is even a driver present.

Tesla has also stated that EAP will only use 4 of the 8 cameras, which will limit the driver assist capabilities for autopilot.

Since it's unlikely Tesla will want to maintain more than one source code for their autopilot system, at some point, they'll likely shift EAP over to use a subset of the FSD software. Though for the current software, it's more likely EAP is using modified AP 1.0 software than using the source code that will eventually support FSD.

As for yesterday's announcement - it's not surprising Tesla is planning to add 10X more processing power. But that doesn't mean we're any closer to having FSD operating - ultimately it's the software that is on the critical path - and based on the current software, we're not close.

And until they get FSD working, using all of the sensors, and operating under all driving conditions, it's possible that even the 10X faster processor may not be enough...

It appears vehicles with FSD activated should be getting the new processor upgrade for free, starting next year.

For those owners who have not yet activated FSD, will they also be eligible for the free processor upgrade? Will Tesla increase the activation fee to cover processor upgrade?
 
For those owners who have not yet activated FSD, will they also be eligible for the free processor upgrade? Will Tesla increase the activation fee to cover processor upgrade?

My guess is anyone that pays for FSD, even after their initial car purchase will get the upgrade for free... remember Elon promised as much... he said all Autopilot 2.0 cars have the capability of FSD and if they determined the hardware actually isn’t capable (which appears to be be case now) then it’ll be a free upgrade. My guess is that the free upgrade won’t go out to the entire fleet, but instead go to people who have already paid for FSD and pay for it in the future.
 
I would just add that one of the big criticisms against Tesla has been that the AP2 hardware was not good enough for FSD ... So there was definitely a hardware component to the problem

According to people other than Tesla. Same with LIDAR. Similar to the people who said that rockets couldn't re-land, Space-X's price-point was pie-in-sky and the whole rest of the huge long list from Shorts and other naysayers , many with vested interests.

Maybe it can't be done with existing hardware? Who cares ... if that's the case Tesla will upgrade it, a new Chip isn't going to break the bank.

I've had loads of freebie upgrades - starting with model change improvements before my car was even made, let alone all the freebie software updates I've had since, including the fact that my AEB now works if the car two-in-front brakes (and the car in front does nothing), that's exactly the sort of thing that creative software achieves. And all great for PR too

Nintendo Games coming soon I hear ...
 
Am I the only one that feels like full self-driving is going to be a long, long way off? Every day I drive my Model S (which I love) and I use autopilot on the highway (which is useful), but I see things every day that make me say "full self-driving... I just don't see it happening anytime soon." I see exit lanes on the highway in rush hour where exiting traffic unofficially splits and makes a single lane two lanes... one for each direction... is my FSD car going to make me the a-hole and sit perfectly in the middle? I drive through my neighborhood which has no lane markings on the road, nothing at all... no lines to separate one direction from another and not even lines highlighting the edge of the road, and I think to myself... how would FSD work in this situation? Scan the road and realize which half to stay on? What if a car is parked in the street (which happens all the time)? What if I get to a 4 way stop sign and there is an aggressive driver who doesn't wait their turn, or a timid driver who starts going after I start? What if we go at the same time? When I'm making a turn through an intersection where there are two turn lanes and I'm in the inner lane, but the folks in the outer lane don't go wide enough and the inner lane cars have to drive over the lines separating the road? Is my FSD car going to try to squeeze them over to make them be perfectly in their proper lane? What if I'm on the highway and need to exit but no one opens up space for me to get in? Personally I might try to force someone to let me over by inching very close to the gap between one car and the next hoping that they back off a bit... how would FSD do that if no one budged?

These are just a small amount of things I see on a daily basis. 90%, maybe even 95% of driving is easy... it's that 5-10% that's tricky where you have to bend/break the traffic rules a little bit to deal with something... how is FSD going to deal with all of that? Maybe if most cars were all FSD and they "talked" to one another it would make it a little easier, but obviously that's not the case.
Yesterday's conference call was the clearest confirmation yet that Tesla had no clue how it would implement FSD when it made promises and started taking people's money. First, Tesla said FSD required AP2 suite with 40x processing power of AP1. Then they made some tweaks to the processing hardware with a silent AP2.5 upgrade. Now Tesla would have us believe that it needs 10x AP2 processing power, which was already 40x AP1 processing power, to make FSD a reality. What will they say next year when they realize they need 10x AP3 processing power to realize promises from 2 years ago?

It never ends with these clowns, and what's worse is you all let them get away with these shenanigans.
 
Yesterday's conference call was the clearest confirmation yet that Tesla had no clue how it would implement FSD when it made promises and started taking people's money. First, Tesla said FSD required AP2 suite with 40x processing power of AP1. Then they made some tweaks to the processing hardware with a silent AP2.5 upgrade. Now Tesla would have us believe that it needs 10x AP2 processing power, which was already 40x AP1 processing power, to make FSD a reality. What will they say next year when they realize they need 10x AP3 processing power to realize promises from 2 years ago?

It never ends with these clowns, and what's worse is you all let them get away with these shenanigans.

How could they possibly know what it would take, when they had no idea how to do it. Still, 90% of the forum refuses to acknowledge Leon & co LIED because the messiah just wouldn't do that!

What's the term for Cognitive Dissonance without any cognition?
 
Am I the only one that feels like full self-driving is going to be a long, long way off? Every day I drive my Model S (which I love) and I use autopilot on the highway (which is useful), but I see things every day that make me say "full self-driving... I just don't see it happening anytime soon." I see exit lanes on the highway in rush hour where exiting traffic unofficially splits and makes a single lane two lanes... one for each direction... is my FSD car going to make me the a-hole and sit perfectly in the middle? I drive through my neighborhood which has no lane markings on the road, nothing at all... no lines to separate one direction from another and not even lines highlighting the edge of the road, and I think to myself... how would FSD work in this situation? Scan the road and realize which half to stay on? What if a car is parked in the street (which happens all the time)? What if I get to a 4 way stop sign and there is an aggressive driver who doesn't wait their turn, or a timid driver who starts going after I start? What if we go at the same time? When I'm making a turn through an intersection where there are two turn lanes and I'm in the inner lane, but the folks in the outer lane don't go wide enough and the inner lane cars have to drive over the lines separating the road? Is my FSD car going to try to squeeze them over to make them be perfectly in their proper lane? What if I'm on the highway and need to exit but no one opens up space for me to get in? Personally I might try to force someone to let me over by inching very close to the gap between one car and the next hoping that they back off a bit... how would FSD do that if no one budged?

These are just a small amount of things I see on a daily basis. 90%, maybe even 95% of driving is easy... it's that 5-10% that's tricky where you have to bend/break the traffic rules a little bit to deal with something... how is FSD going to deal with all of that? Maybe if most cars were all FSD and they "talked" to one another it would make it a little easier, but obviously that's not the case.
Full Self driving is 10 to 20 years away. Too many regulatory hurdles to climb over as well. It also doesn't;t help with Tesla decreasing the nag time on the steering wheel to a nag every 18 seconds. yes, I timed it! How could people expect to go from point A to point B autonomously when we have to hit the steering wheel every 18 seconds? FSD is a joke and I feel sorry for people who bought into this. By the time it turns into fruition, if it does, the current cars on the road will all be gone anyway.
 
Yesterday's conference call was the clearest confirmation yet that Tesla had no clue how it would implement FSD when it made promises and started taking people's money. First, Tesla said FSD required AP2 suite with 40x processing power of AP1. Then they made some tweaks to the processing hardware with a silent AP2.5 upgrade. Now Tesla would have us believe that it needs 10x AP2 processing power, which was already 40x AP1 processing power, to make FSD a reality. What will they say next year when they realize they need 10x AP3 processing power to realize promises from 2 years ago?

It never ends with these clowns, and what's worse is you all let them get away with these shenanigans.

I guess Microsoft or Apple always knew 5 years in advance what computer processing power they would need to run their systems that were still in development and never had to re-evaluate or ever make a mistake? :rolleyes:

Besides, what would you prefer: that they admit their mistakes and get it right in the end or never achieve FSD at all because they refuse to admit they were wrong or stubbornly persist in doing something that the computer can't do?

And I am not letting them get away with anything but I do want them to succeed.
 
As I see it, yes, FSD feels like a long way off now because all we have to judge is the current AP which is not even designed to be self-driving. So yeah, right now, it looks slow. But FSD development will move at an exponential rate. And as soon as we see big progress on AP, people will start re-evaluating FSD and predicting it will happen sooner. I predict that when V9 comes out, we will get a much better AP and people will start saying "hmm, maybe FSD is not so impossible after all" and then the AP3 chip will come out and some FSD features like stop sign recognition will come out and then people will go "hmm, this is starting to look promising, maybe FSD is only a couple of years off".