Fried Wall Charger: Looking for Opinions

[DuxClarus]

Hey all,

Long time lurker - first time poster.

Long story short, recently my Wall Charger fried. After opening it up I clearly saw the culprit (see photos).

What I would like to discuss is if the hired electrician did a good job or if there is negligence on the hired electricians part. I'm by no means am a electrician and I took my contractors recommendation. This contractor has worked on my house multiple times so I trusted his word . The hired electrician wasn't Tesla Certified at the time. (Still don't know if the company is or isn't.) But at the very least they are a licensed electrician.

So here are my facts and see the photos for visual details.

Timeline/Usage

• The Wall Charger was installed back in Nov 2017.
• I received my Model 3 in June 2018.
• August 2020 - May 2022 I was living in Indiana and only used the charger during the summer/winter breaks. (I was in Indiana for graduate school).

So roughly around 3.5 years of service.

Possible Negligence Areas

• The conductors used were aluminum. It clearly states in the manual and on the hardware use copper conductors only.
• The hired electrician didn't acquire a permit from the town. Thus didn't submit plans of the work to the town. I wasn't aware this was necessary but am now after getting estimates from Tesla certified electricians for installing a new Wall Charger.
• The break installed is an 80amp breaker and I heard from some friends that could cause a problem in the case of power surge scenarios. I'm not necessarily sure I understand this one and more explanation would be greatly appreciated. Something along the lines of if a surge did happen and the breaker wasn't trip, 80 amps would be sent to the Wall Charger which is a 60 amp unit. Thus, receiving more power than it's intended, is this correct?

Pictures

1. Fried Internals
2. Fried Internals with Copper Conductor sticker
3. Installed breaker
4. Outline of work on original estimate
5. Main Breaker information sticker

Thank you all for participating in this discussion. I appreciate any help/advice that you'll leave.

 

[jjrandorin]

• The break installed is an 80amp breaker and I heard from some friends that could cause a problem in the case of power surge scenarios. I'm not necessarily sure I understand this one and more explanation would be greatly appreciated. Something along the lines of if a surge did happen and the breaker wasn't trip, 80 amps would be sent to the Wall Charger which is a 60 amp unit. Thus, receiving more power than it's intended, is this correct?

I will leave the rest of the technical details to some of our more technically minded members, but Tesla Gen 2 wall units are capable of 80amp charging (on a 100 amp circuit) so its not a "60amp unit".

Gen 3 wall connectors are a 60amp unit, but they did not exist in 2017 so are not relevant to this discussion.

 

[RayK]

If you received your 3 back in June 2018 then it should charge at a maximum of 48A (using a 60A breaker). No need for a 80A breaker with a Model 3.

 

[jjrandorin]

If you received your 3 back in June 2018 then it should charge at a maximum of 48A (using a 60A breaker). No need for a 80A breaker with a Model 3.

But this OP had this installed in Nov of 2017, either right before or right as the model 3s were launching. A tesla Gen 2 wall connector has a max setting of 80amps, (on a 100 amp circuit), and just like all sorts of people think they have to install Tesla Gen 3 wall connectors on 60 amp circuits / 48amp charging for their Model 3 RWD / SR+ cars (that can only charge at a max of 32amps), people back then would have tried to "max out" the wall connector to "future proof" it.

Whether it was needed or not, the wall connector was capable of it, so some people would have set it up for it.

 

[Kimmi]

Unlicensed electrician? Sounds like someone else was also negligent.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Electrician was clearly negligent if they installed a device that said "Copper conductors only" with aluminum conductors. They could have spent $20 on pigtails to transition to copper and this probably wouldn't have happened.

The correct breaker is determined by the wire size and the terminal equipment. In this case, assuming you replace the HPWC with a Gen3, you must reduce the breaker to 60 amps or less even if the wire is capable of handling 80. The Gen2 HPWC was capable of dealing with 80 amps continuous, so if the conductor used was sufficient, the 80 amp breaker would have been okay.

 

[jjrandorin]

Unlicensed electrician? Sounds like someone else was also negligent.

Thats not what the OP said:

The hired electrician wasn't Tesla Certified at the time. (Still don't know if the company is or isn't.) But at the very least they are a licensed electrician.

 

[kpanda17]

Seems like a lot could have been done wrong
Looking at the lockdown terminal of the WC, the lugs might not have been torqued correctly as well

 

[DuxClarus]

As a forewarning: please forgive me if I mix up technical terms! And certainly correct me! I'm here to learn as well as understand what went wrong.

Unlicensed electrician? Sounds like someone else was also negligent.

The company was licensed...

people back then would have tried to "max out" the wall connector to "future proof" it.

This is true. I do remember discussing trying to "max out" as you put it with the electrician. But I also remember telling them as long as the breaker box and wall charger could handle it.

Electrician was clearly negligent if they installed a device that said "Copper conductors only" with aluminum conductors. They could have spent $20 on pigtails to transition to copper and this probably wouldn't have happened.

The correct breaker is determined by the wire size and the terminal equipment. In this case, assuming you replace the HPWC with a Gen3, you must reduce the breaker to 60 amps or less even if the wire is capable of handling 80. The Gen2 HPWC was capable of dealing with 80 amps continuous, so if the conductor used was sufficient, the 80 amp breaker would have been okay.

1st Paragraph: So true... wish I had caught this. =/
2nd Paragraph: Thanks for the input. The main thing I'm getting from here is that with my new Wall Charger (that I just order tonight) should be 60 amps or less. I'm going with a Tesla Certified Electrician so they'll already know that (... I hope).

I will leave the rest of the technical details to some of our more technically minded members, but Tesla Gen 2 wall units are capable of 80amp charging (on a 100 amp circuit) so its not a "60amp unit".

• The break installed is an 80amp breaker and I heard from some friends that could cause a problem in the case of power surge scenarios. I'm not necessarily sure I understand this one and more explanation would be greatly appreciated. Something along the lines of if a surge did happen and the breaker wasn't trip, 80 amps would be sent to the Wall Charger which is a 60 amp unit. Thus, receiving more power than it's intended, is this correct?

I slightly misspoke here. This input came from a Tesla Certified Electrician when I was picking his brain about my situation. It's very likely he didn't know I had an Gen 2 HPWC. I'm pretty sure in our conversation I didn't give him the whole timeline like I did here. Just wanted to clear that up.
And regardless of that - it's good to know the Gen 2 HPWC was capable of 80amp intake.

Seems like a lot could have been done wrong
Looking at the lockdown terminal of the WC, the lugs might not have been torqued correctly as well

Do you mind highlighting that in the picture? I don't necessarily know where/what you're describing. Thank you!

 

[kpanda17]

These three

 

[DuxClarus]

Seems like a lot could have been done wrong
Looking at the lockdown terminal of the WC, the lugs might not have been torqued correctly as well

Thanks for the picture. So, uhhhh, how can you tell the lugs might not have been torqued correctly just by viewing the two pictures alone? What gives it away? Also, I'm impressed you can do that.

 

[kpanda17]

Fires and meltdowns happen when resistance develops or there is a gap

Aluminum and copper combo can increase resistance
Gaps exist or develop from failure to torque to spec

 

[DuxClarus]

Fires and meltdowns happen when resistance develops or there is a gap

Aluminum and copper combo can increase resistance
Gaps exist or develop from failure to torque to spec

Good to know! Thank you kpanda17.
(I'd totally just thumbs up that comment but I can't do that yet... I think?)

 

[455dan]

Thanks for the picture. So, uhhhh, how can you tell the lugs might not have been torqued correctly just by viewing the two pictures alone? What gives it away? Also, I'm impressed you can do that.

My 02cents. Not an electrician but a Degreed Electronics Tech

First yeah... should have used stranded copper. But since the installer did use Aluminum It is VERY important to use De-OX (type A) on the dissimilar Aluminum / Copper metal connection points especially when it is a high current application. Oxidation over time at the termination junction will cause heat and with repeated use result in pictures like those posted. Obviously the connection also needs to be tight as well. Just moving a breaker into position after terminating the wire will loosen the screws somewhat. I always final torque the connections (with the breaker off of course).

ps. After looking at the first pic I think the ground wire looks to have discolored possibly??. When 1/2 of the split phase 240 VAC was lost the wall connector /car should have shut down the power transfer. Did the car actually charge at a lower amperage for a while ?

Did the tech terminate the ground wire to the actual ground in the breaker box or did they terminate it to the neutral bar.

It Should Only be terminated to ground.

 

[Rocky_H]

I love installation discussions and have a couple of thoughts/questions.

Yes, an older wall connector is allowed to be installed on up to a 100A rated circuit. That could provide 80A continuous.

The wording on that work order is a little strange. It says it is installing a "100A line" but then it says it's using an 80A breaker. It's not a 100A circuit then. It would only be an 80A circuit. But maybe that just meant that it's using wire thickness capable of 100A, so it will be sufficient.

Speaking of sufficient, we don't know if the wire gauge is or not. I haven't seen any mention of what the wire gauge is. 100A rated aluminum looks like it would be 1 gauge, which is really thick. Doesn't look that thick from the pictures to me.

Regardless, the wall connector does specifically say not to wire aluminum directly into it. This should have transitioned somehow to copper wire for the final connection.

 

[DuxClarus]

My 02cents. Not an electrician but a Degreed Electronics Tech

First yeah... should have used stranded copper. But since the installer did use Aluminum It is VERY important to use De-OX (type A) on the dissimilar Aluminum / Copper metal connection points especially when it is a high current application. Oxidation over time at the termination junction will cause heat and with repeated use result in pictures like those posted. Obviously the connection also needs to be tight as well. Just moving a breaker into position after terminating the wire will loosen the screws somewhat. I always final torque the connections (with the breaker off of course).

ps. After looking at the first pic I think the ground wire looks to have discolored possibly??. When 1/2 of the split phase 240 VAC was lost the wall connector /car should have shut down the power transfer. Did the car actually charge at a lower amperage for a while ?

Did the tech terminate the ground wire to the actual ground in the breaker box or did they terminate it to the neutral bar.

It Should Only be terminated to ground.

Unfortunately, I cannot answer the ground/neutral question with certainty since it has been removed/dismantled completely from the break box and I personally didn't check that detail. I'll ask my friend (PSE&G Electrician) that removed all this stuff but I doubt they remember.

Yes, at like 1 amp. I'll get a picture of the Tesla error which made me aware of all of this. But iirc the Tesla App notification said the HPWC amp/voltage was reduce to prevent overheating. And at that point I think it was charging at like 1amp.

/Rant - I was actually quite frustrated with the Tesla App notifications b/c when you clicked them, the notification disappeared, and opened the app to the home page with not additional information. I couldn't find them after that but at least my car has a log so I'll double check that.

I love installation discussions and have a couple of thoughts/questions.

Yes, an older wall connector is allowed to be installed on up to a 100A rated circuit. That could provide 80A continuous.

The wording on that work order is a little strange. It says it is installing a "100A line" but then it says it's using an 80A breaker. It's not a 100A circuit then. It would only be an 80A circuit. But maybe that just meant that it's using wire thickness capable of 100A, so it will be sufficient.

Speaking of sufficient, we don't know if the wire gauge is or not. I haven't seen any mention of what the wire gauge is. 100A rated aluminum looks like it would be 1 gauge, which is really thick. Doesn't look that thick from the pictures to me.

Regardless, the wall connector does specifically say not to wire aluminum directly into it. This should have transitioned somehow to copper wire for the final connection.

I still have all the fried equipment. So, if you would like to see more pictures I can gladly try and post some more. I may need guidance on where exactly I should be pointing the camera. At the very least I can get a picture of the wire from the break box to the HPWC.

 

[kpanda17]

Why not start over, buy a new Gen 3
Find an experienced electrician via Tesla.com
This trained and experienced person will plan it all correctly
Read rhe manual yourself before he starts and note all of the critical points, review with Jim and make sure he follows:

Electrical panel
Right gauge wire for amps, distance
Use copper wire
Torque down all connections
Etc

You don’t want a fire, house fires are disastrous for a family

 

[DuxClarus]

Why not start over, buy a new Gen 3
Find an experienced electrician via Tesla.com
This trained and experienced person will plan it all correctly
Read rhe manual yourself before he starts and note all of the critical points, review with Jim and make sure he follows:

Electrical panel
Right gauge wire for amps, distance
Use copper wire
Torque down all connections
Etc

You don’t want a fire, house fires are disastrous for a family

I am doing that. Not sure what made you think otherwise.

Here are the wire pictures attached. They are ordered 1-3 for reading.

 

[ATPMSD]

Find an experienced electrician via Tesla.com
This trained and experienced person will plan it all correctly

Bad assumption, just because they are on the Tesla list does not mean they know what they are doing. The forums are full of posts about so called Tesla approved electricians who used #6 Romex in a 60-amp circuit and configured the wall connector to 60-amps. #6 Romex is limited to 55-amps (44-amps continuous) and using it on a 60-amp circuit (which required 48-amps continuous) is not to code.

I do agree with the rest of the suggestions.

 

[Rocky_H]

Here are the wire pictures attached. They are ordered 1-3 for reading.

Ah, yeah, that labeling on the wire shows it's 2 gauge. That should be good for either 75 or 90 amp--I'm not quite sure which temperature rating for AL SER cable and depending on where it was used. Still can't use AL directly into the wall connector, but it could still serve for a 60A circuit of a new wall connector if it is switched over to copper for the final piece.