Four Rial Lugano 19" wheels bent in two weeks - are they up to the task?

[HankLloydRight]

Been driving BMW M cars and always 19". absolutely no need for 20 or 21... its just for looks. yes staggered and 265-300 in the back is important for grip/acceleration.

My other car is also an M5 (and a Z4), so I agree 19"s are fine, but I'm sure TM tuned the handling and performance the P85+ to the 21" wheels+tires. They could have done that with 19" or 20" wheels, too. But they didn't. It would be nice if there were an option to get a P85+ factory tuned with 19" wheels.

 

[doc@tirerack]

The LM60 meet the required load rating, but at maximum pressure of 44 lbs vs. Tesla specified 45. I do not think that the load rating of tire would affect the wheel, it just would have higher propensity for a blow-out as compared to a higher load-rated tire, all other things equal.

Correct, unless the tires were well below recommended PSI (like under 36) the wheel and tire would be at "full strength" at 44 PSI.

 

[wycolo]

@vgrinshpun: Could you provide the info from the inside of the spokes on these damaged rims, please?

Tesla DOT-T ___ 19x8.0J +40mm ___ MadeInUSA is all the Tesla OEMs have, the rest is punched-in serial number stuff with no apparent meaning.

Chinese rims always seem to have the weight rating clearly stated which is helpful.
--

 

[vgrinshpun]

@vgrinshpun: Could you provide the info from the inside of the spokes on these damaged rims, please?

Tesla DOT-T ___ 19x8.0J +40mm ___ MadeInUSA is all the Tesla OEMs have, the rest is punched-in serial number stuff with no apparent meaning.

Chinese rims always seem to have the weight rating clearly stated which is helpful.
--

Attached are several pictures with information from the inside of spokes of one of the damaged wheels. One surprise is that the wheels seem to be manufactured in Germany, so it is strange that they are listed as manufactured in Poland by Tire Rack.

 

[Chris TX]

The powdercoating technique used on those wheels might have metallurgically damaged the aluminum. If the baking process was too hot, it would anneal (weaken) it.

This is probably the case, or you're just a really bad driver (kidding! )

Also, this thread is death by megapixel

 

[vgrinshpun]

The powdercoating technique used on those wheels might have metallurgically damaged the aluminum. If the baking process was too hot, it would anneal (weaken) it.

This is probably the case, or you're just a really bad driver (kidding! )

Also, this thread is death by megapixel

This is interesting information. Could you clarify how did you conclude that wheels are powder coated. Also, would you mind to indicate if you are a professional in the area of material science. I am asking because circumstantially I seem to have defective wheels. The fact that nobody reports similar damage and that wheels were bent due to relatively low speed impact which was obviously below the threshold that would damage any of four involved tires, seem to be indicative of questionable quality of my particular wheels.

Unfortunately Tire Rack so far is not stepping up to replace the damaged wheels. I was wondering if I can convince Tire Rack to
address this issue with the manufacturer based on your professional opinion.

 

[Chris TX]

I am not a professional in the area of metals or wheels, but I do happen to know a lot about metals and powdercoating from various automotive related projects. As for your particular wheels, the black coloring could be powdercoating or a painted coating that would be heat cured, similar to the finishing process in powdercoating.

Basically, when aluminum is forged, pressed, or molded, it tends to create a matrix similar to a crystalline structure. As the metal cools slowly, it will be at its strongest (depending on the alloy). It also tends to be more on the brittle side, so it would chunk or snap before bending.

Now your wheels did not chunk, snap, or break. They bent, which means the metal might have changed since its original forging. If your wheels were exposed to powder/paint curing temps above 300-400F there was a risk of annealing which would soften the metal. They might have even been on the hotter side of the oven or there was something wrong with a thermostat that day and their quality control didn't catch it (or care).

Ideally, powdercoating aluminum would be around 275F and there are specific powders used for these "cooler" temps.

If you have the time and want to prove to TireRack that these wheels are defective, you could send one of them to a professional metallurgist that has the equipment to examine the metal.

Good luck, and I hope my info has helped. Too many people are running around with dangerously powdercoated wheels and don't even know it.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Unfortunately Tire Rack so far is not stepping up to replace the damaged wheels.

And I really don't think they will. They don't know how fast you were going or the specific conditions in your instance. Without a road-hazard insurance policy for wheels (not that that actually exists), I doubt they would do anything for you. I've had several bent alloy rims without any visible tire damage. It happens. There are wheel shops around that can fix bent rims for between $100 and $150 per rim. My Tesla delivery guy said that if I bend one of the 21" rims, bring it in and they'll fix it for about that price.

I think trying to prove the wheels are actually defective, without any real proof or evidence is going to be a losing battle (even if you get a metallurgy expert to render an opinion). I had a set of rims I bought from TR for winter tires for my M5. While replacing the tires the next season, the tire shop found two of the rims severely cracked on the inside. And I had been driving on these rims for months, I hadn't hit any potholes or damaged the wheels in any way. They were clearly defective and cracked. TR told me they can't do anything about it, and even if they could, they don't even sell those rims anymore. I had to buy four new rims -- they didn't even offer me any discount, etc. Not that TR is bad, I've bought dozens of tires and many sets of wheels from them, and I will continue to do so, but I don't think they're in the business of replacing rims for everyone that damages them.

 

[vgrinshpun]

And I really don't think they will. They don't know how fast you were going or the specific conditions in your instance. Without a road-hazard insurance policy for wheels (not that that actually exists), I doubt they would do anything for you. I've had several bent alloy rims without any visible tire damage. It happens. There are wheel shops around that can fix bent rims for between $100 and $150 per rim. My Tesla delivery guy said that if I bend one of the 21" rims, bring it in and they'll fix it for about that price.

I think trying to prove the wheels are actually defective, without any real proof or evidence is going to be a losing battle (even if you get a metallurgy expert to render an opinion). I had a set of rims I bought from TR for winter tires for my M5. While replacing the tires the next season, the tire shop found two of the rims severely cracked on the inside. And I had been driving on these rims for months, I hadn't hit any potholes or damaged the wheels in any way. They were clearly defective and cracked. TR told me they can't do anything about it, and even if they could, they don't even sell those rims anymore. I had to buy four new rims -- they didn't even offer me any discount, etc. Not that TR is bad, I've bought dozens of tires and many sets of wheels from them, and I will continue to do so, but I don't think they're in the business of replacing rims for everyone that damages them.

I do not expect TR to replace the rims for everybody who damages them. What I do expect from them is to contact the wheel manufacturer on behalf of a customer when there is reasonable data indicating possible defect in the wheels. It is wheel manufacturer's job to access situation, and, if found defective, replace the wheels. The TR should not replace the wheels, but manufacturer should. My problem with TR is that they did not even contact the manufacturer, and dismissed my situation without giving any sound reason whatsoever.

Ironically your post confirms my suspicion and Chris TX theory that I have defective wheels: the damage to your M5 wheels was in form of cracks, which is consistent with point made by Chris TX -that cracks should appear on aluminum wheels BEFORE they are bent. In my case the wheels are bent WITHOUT any cracks or chips, which is indication of weakened material of the wheels, i.e. that they are defective.

Finally, repair of aluminum wheels involves heating, which, as indicated by Chris TX, carries risk of weakening them - not a risk that anybody should accept with Model S being uncomonly heavy car.

 

[AndreyATC]

Not sure if this helps the discussion, since i dont have much knowledge in metals
But here is my experiences:
I've been driving BMWs for past 15yrs
Most of the time I had 2 sets of wheels, sometimes even 3
Set 1 would be OEM performance (sport package), 2 - tirerack winters, 3 - aftermarket summer setup (typically wider with larger rim)
I've bent quite a few of these during the life of many cars and i only had ONE rim cracked
Most of the rimes either got small drivable bent or bent to the point it was leaking air through the lip
The only rim that was cracked was Sport Edition from tire rack, but that pothole would pretty much kill any sport rim

I'm not an expert to say whether all the rims were powder-coated or not, but they were silver

So, this leads me to believe that aluminum rims should not crack, they should only bend

 

[HankLloydRight]

Finally, repair of aluminum wheels involves heating, which, as indicated by Chris TX carries risk of weakening them - not a risk that anybody should accept with Model S being uncomonly heavy car.

Heating over a certain temperature can weaken the wheels. An expert shop can straighten aluminum alloy wheels without further damage or weakening.

And I have to disagree -- bent rims without cracks doesn't really tell you anything in terms of defective material. Bent rims are bent rims -- like I said, it happens. Just because there *weren't* cracks, doesn't mean they are defective wheels. I would think just the opposite -- if your bent rims *did* also have cracks, that would indicate weak material. Not the absence of cracks.

 

[Chris TX]

I'm not saying a bent rim means the metal is annealed. I'm saying all four bent soon after installing where there is no (visible) damage to the tire is suspicious. There is also a possibility the metal is too thin for normal use. I'd be curious to see what these wheels would have done with some speed bumps at 20MPH.

All four wheels bent like that should have damaged other things if the metal wasn't questionable. Large pothole encounters that create that kind of wheel damage tend to set off airbags, break windows, etc.

 

[mknox]

I was just about to hit the order button for these wheels when I came across this thread.

My question is: Has anyone besides the OP had any issues with the Lugano wheels getting bent (or any other problems)? I've driven on aluminum wheels for many, many years and the only problem I've ever had is corrosion around the bead requiring removing the tires, cleaning the corrosion and re-mounting.

 

[NJS1207]

I hesitate to make this post for fear of jinxing myself, but I am coming to the end of my second winter driving Rial Luganos on abysmal New Jersey roads, and I have not had any issues with bent rims.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm really sorry to hear about the issue you had with the Rials, vgrinshpun.

 

[JST]

Honestly, the reason I'd stay away from the Luganos has nothing to do with bending--it's that they are so frigging heavy. Tire Rack lists their weight at 32 lbs a pop, before the tire, which is pretty beefy (though I haven't weighed a stock wheel).

The old adage with wheels is "cheap, light, strong--choose two," but it sounds like maybe the Luganos aren't particularly strong despite being fairly heavy.

If I were going to go with winter wheels, I'd either try and get a set of OEM take-offs (which is in almost every case the option that gives you the strongest, lightest wheels for the lowest price, no matter what car you are talking about), or go with something like the OZ Superturismos, which are a solid 6 lbs per wheel lighter than the Rials.

 

[100thMonkey]

I was just about to hit the order button for these wheels when I came across this thread.

My question is: Has anyone besides the OP had any issues with the Lugano wheels getting bent (or any other problems)? I've driven on aluminum wheels for many, many years and the only problem I've ever had is corrosion around the bead requiring removing the tires, cleaning the corrosion and re-mounting.

we have not had a single issue, well, except that my father in law curbed them taking too wide a turn, under acceleration. they got scratched pretty badly but no bending issues. I have not heard of this happening to anyone but the OP. i'm very curious to hear what tire rack does for this guy, it's got to be an anomaly... I'd also like to see a picture of that pot hole. we've driven over speeds bumps and pretty bumpy roads no problem.

 

[glhs272]

Just another data point. I have been running the Rials without issue here in Wisconsin. The roads are terrible right now, frost heaves and pot holes.

 

[AndreyATC]

I'm happy with Rial Luganos / Michelin Xice3 setup
BTW they are lighter than stock (P85+)
It's easily felt when swapping wheels

 

[vgrinshpun]

The old adage with wheels is "cheap, light, strong--choose two," but it sounds like maybe the Luganos aren't particularly strong despite being fairly heavy.
.

I just weighed one of the bent wheels and it came full pound lighter than specified on TR site: the actual weight is 30.5 lbs vs. specified 31.55 lbs. Looks like another sign that something is wrong with my particular set of wheels: generally speaking, all other things equal, the lighter wheel would have less metal and be weaker, meaning less impact resistance.

- - - Updated - - -

I was just about to hit the order button for these wheels when I came across this thread.

My question is: Has anyone besides the OP had any issues with the Lugano wheels getting bent (or any other problems)? I've driven on aluminum wheels for many, many years and the only problem I've ever had is corrosion around the bead requiring removing the tires, cleaning the corrosion and re-mounting.

I've driven on aluminum wheels for many years as well, and never had any problems despite hitting large pot holes at highway speed. I vividly remember one such incident hitting particularly large pot hole at about 65 mph in our 2004 Toyota Sienna AWD without any damage. To be fair though, the largest wheel I drove on before Model S was 18". The larger the wheel, the stronger it must be to resist the same impact as a smaller diameter wheel.

 

[mknox]

Honestly, the reason I'd stay away from the Luganos has nothing to do with bending--it's that they are so frigging heavy.

May be a silly question, but would that affect rolling resistance/efficiency?

I ended up mounting my winter Nokian Hakka R2s to the stock Tesla 19" wheels and was planning to mount my summer rubber to the Luganos.