Finally 120KW Supercharging!

[Cottonwood]

So, like Gaul, each SuperCharger is divided into three major components:

1. Arches that hold the charging cable/plug that connect to your MS.

2. The power transformer - Massive unit mounted on concrete pad outdoors, usually painted dark green. Adjacent is a smaller steel cabinet also on pad, for all the wire connections going into (from electric utility company) and out of the transformer (to the fenced-in area).

3. The fenced-in area containing vertical rack cabinets, one cabinet per pair of charging arches. Cabinets are about 24 inches wide and contain a dozen identical charger units stacked one above the other. They are each fed power from the transformer and their output goes to a pair of arches.

When Silverthorne CO was being tested by the Tech Guy from headquarters he had cabinets open on the east side but I didn't notice that the cabinets on the west side were the same as the ones on the east side. I thought maybe they were another type of unit like perhaps mercury vapor rectifiers (something old, something blue). :smile:
--

Exactly, there is also a fourth major part (and a fifth if you count the conduits). Here is the complete list, starting at the utility side:

1. The utility transformers. This is the large squat, dark-green object that is usually close to (but not inside) the enclosure containing the Tesla Supercharger gear. The High Voltage (HV), 3-Phase lines come from the utility to this transformer, and the output is 480 Volt (Delta or Line to Line), 277 Volt (Wye, Line to Neutral), 3-Phase power.
2. The 480 Volt disconnect switches and circuit breakers.The power from the transformer goes to the Disconnect, Distribution, and Circuit breaker cabinets. These are usually light gray and made by Square D. They are just a giant version of the circuit breaker box in your house. In a typical install, the main feed in would be something like 800 or 1,000 Amp, 480 Volt 3-Phase service, and the output to each Supercharger Cabinet (rack, stack) is 200 Amps at 480 Volts with a neutral.
3. The charge controller cabinets. Each of these is as light beige in color, is about 24 inches wide, and has a large hooded cooling air duct in the back. Each Supercharger Cabinet contains 12, identical, modular chargers that are the same as the one or two chargers in an MS. The ones being installed currently can put out a total of 120 kW DC, shared between 2 charging stalls. Each of the individual chargers is connected between one of the AC phases and Neutral. A "Wye" connection (Line to Neutral is 277 Volts and that's only a little more than the 250 Volts that the car chargers are spec'd for. If you look at the maximum draw from a 200 Amp breaker it is 160 Amps; 277 Volts * 160 Amps * 3 Phases is 133 kW. 133 kW AC in for 120 kW DC out is a perfect match for the chargers running at 90% efficiency or better.
4. The pedestals (arches) at each charging stall.The pedestals at each charging stall are fed by the Supercharger cabinets and are where you find that nice, big cable and connector to plug into your MS. They are usually numbered 1A/1B, 2A/2B, etc. The numbers indicate the Supercharger Cabinet used, and the letters denote the pair of stalls serviced by each cabinet. The usual layout is 1A, 2A, ... 1B, 2B, ... This means that adjacent stalls are on different Supercharger Cabinets. If you want to make sure that you are getting maximum charging power, try to make sure that the paired stall (e.g. 1A paired with 1B) is not in use. If both charging stalls are in use, then priority is given to the first car to arrive, and the second car to arrive gets what's left over.
5. The Conduits. These may seem mundane, but a big part of installing a Supercharger site, is putting in the interconnecting conduits. Putting these in, is the reason for all of the trenching and back fill that you see at most sites. Because of the high current in all of these wires, the wires are very large and therefore the conduits are very large.
   • HV lines fromt the utility substation to the transformer.
   • 480 Volt 3-Phase from the transformer to the circuit breaker cabinets.
   • 480 Volt 3-Phase from the circuit breaker cabinets to the Supercharger cabinets.
   • 400 Volt DC and signaling from the Supercharger cabinets to the pedestals.

 

[bluetinc]

All,

I had a chance to run a full charge on my car (with a 90kW limited battery) yesterday in Delaware on one of the 120kW chargers while collecting data. Raw data is available if anyone wants it, but here are the results, along with a quick graph. Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds.

Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC
120kW charge on newer battery times pulled from Wraithnot's data
Datapoints in the table were estimated from available data

My conclusion was a bit surprising to me. When comparing charge times on a SOC basis, Jeromes assertion that it takes only 4 extra minutes to charge an older battery pack from 20% -> 90% was nearly correct. The largest effect on the time difference is that my battery pack has degraded an extra 5% more than Wraithnot's. This means that to charge to the same "rated mile" point of ~230 miles from ~30 miles, would take me charging from 20%->95%, a time of 1 hour 7 min, while Wraithnot would be there in 52 min.

SOC	Rated Miles added (248 mile pack)	90kW Battery Time	120kW Battery Time
8->20%	30 miles	8 min	6 min
20->30%	26 miles	5 min	4 min
30->40%	24 miles	5 min	4 min
40->50%	27 miles	6 min	4 min
50->60%	25 miles	6 min	6 min
60->70%	28 miles	7 min	7 min
70->80%	28 miles	12 min	11 min
80->90%	29 miles	15 min	14 min
90->99%	31 miles	32 min	35 min
20->90%	185	58 min	52 min

 

[scaesare]

...

Good stuff, Cottonwood. The identification plate actually suggests the current draw may be higher @277V than just 160A. Although they don't specify, it might be closer to 280A * 0.8 = 221.6A?

Pic of the Newark, DE chargers:

 

[wraithnot]

All,

I had a chance to run a full charge on my car (with a 90kW limited battery) yesterday in Delaware on one of the 120kW chargers while collecting data. Raw data is available if anyone wants it, but here are the results, along with a quick graph. Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds.

Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC
120kW charge on newer battery times pulled from Wraithnot's data
Datapoints in the table were estimated from available data

My conclusion was a bit surprising to me. When comparing charge times on a SOC basis, Jeromes assertion that it takes only 4 extra minutes to charge an older battery pack from 20% -> 90% was nearly correct. The largest effect on the time difference is that my battery pack has degraded an extra 5% more than Wraithnot's. This means that to charge to the same "rated mile" point of ~230 miles from ~30 miles, would take me charging from 20%->95%, a time of 1 hour 7 min, while Wraithnot would be there in 52 min.

SOC	Rated Miles added (248 mile pack)	90kW Battery Time	120kW Battery Time
8->20%	30 miles	8 min	6 min
20->30%	26 miles	5 min	4 min
30->40%	24 miles	5 min	4 min
40->50%	27 miles	6 min	4 min
50->60%	25 miles	6 min	6 min
60->70%	28 miles	7 min	7 min
70->80%	28 miles	12 min	11 min
80->90%	29 miles	15 min	14 min
90->99%	31 miles	32 min	35 min
20->90%	185	58 min	52 min

View attachment 39819

Looks like a very nice dataset- I'd definitely be interested in seeing the numerical data (dropbox works great but I can also PM you my email address). I'm curious to see how it compares to the data from my car when the superchargers maxed out at 90 kW. I'm also impressed that you charged all the way from 1 rated mile to a full range charge! I picked up a few miles of range after a few deep charges and discharges: Decreasing rated range. - Page 66 - hopefully the same happens for you.

 

[Cottonwood]

Good stuff, Cottonwood. The identification plate actually suggests the current draw may be higher @277V than just 160A. Although they don't specify, it might be closer to 280A * 0.8 = 221.6A?

Pic of the Newark, DE chargers:
See picture in Finally 120KW Supercharging! - Post #223

No the 160 Amps is right on. There is a common confusion of Voltages with 3-Phase power. See Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia. L-N Voltage (Wye or Y connection) is L-L Voltage (Delta connection) divided by the square root of 3. Therefore, 480V/1.732=277V. Most 3-phase installs refer to Voltage by the Delta, L-L Voltage. The 160 Amps @ 480 VAC is the usual install, but it feeds each individual charging module with L-N at 277 Volts.

Did that make sense? :wink:

 

[yobigd20]

All,

I had a chance to run a full charge on my car (with a 90kW limited battery) yesterday in Delaware on one of the 120kW chargers while collecting data. Raw data is available if anyone wants it, but here are the results, along with a quick graph. Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds.

Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC
120kW charge on newer battery times pulled from Wraithnot's data
Datapoints in the table were estimated from available data

My conclusion was a bit surprising to me. When comparing charge times on a SOC basis, Jeromes assertion that it takes only 4 extra minutes to charge an older battery pack from 20% -> 90% was nearly correct. The largest effect on the time difference is that my battery pack has degraded an extra 5% more than Wraithnot's.

Curious, how many miles do you have on your MS now? What is your max rated range on a range charge? "5% more" seems like quite a lot. I know my range charges are still > 255 miles @34k. I'm wondering if the "A" packs degrade faster than the "B" packs...also wondering what your daily charge habits are and how many times you've range charges total.

 

[Cottonwood]

Exactly, there is also a fourth major part (and a fifth if you count the conduits). Here is the complete list, starting at the utility side:

1. The utility transformers. This is the large squat, dark-green object that is usually close to (but not inside) the enclosure containing the Tesla Supercharger gear. The High Voltage (HV), 3-Phase lines come from the utility to this transformer, and the output is 480 Volt (Delta or Line to Line), 277 Volt (Wye, Line to Neutral), 3-Phase power.
2. The 480 Volt disconnect switches and circuit breakers.The power from the transformer goes to the Disconnect, Distribution, and Circuit breaker cabinets. These are usually light gray and made by Square D. They are just a giant version of the circuit breaker box in your house. In a typical install, the main feed in would be something like 800 or 1,000 Amp, 480 Volt 3-Phase service, and the output to each Supercharger Cabinet (rack, stack) is 200 Amps at 480 Volts with a neutral.
3. The charge controller cabinets. Each of these is as light beige in color, is about 24 inches wide, and has a large hooded cooling air duct in the back. Each Supercharger Cabinet contains 12, identical, modular chargers that are the same as the one or two chargers in an MS. The ones being installed currently can put out a total of 120 kW DC, shared between 2 charging stalls. Each of the individual chargers is connected between one of the AC phases and Neutral. A "Wye" connection (Line to Neutral is 277 Volts and that's only a little more than the 250 Volts that the car chargers are spec'd for. If you look at the maximum draw from a 200 Amp breaker it is 160 Amps; 277 Volts * 160 Amps * 3 Phases is 133 kW. 133 kW AC in for 120 kW DC out is a perfect match for the chargers running at 90% efficiency or better.
4. The pedestals (arches) at each charging stall.The pedestals at each charging stall are fed by the Supercharger cabinets and are where you find that nice, big cable and connector to plug into your MS. They are usually numbered 1A/1B, 2A/2B, etc. The numbers indicate the Supercharger Cabinet used, and the letters denote the pair of stalls serviced by each cabinet. The usual layout is 1A, 2A, ... 1B, 2B, ... This means that adjacent stalls are on different Supercharger Cabinets. If you want to make sure that you are getting maximum charging power, try to make sure that the paired stall (e.g. 1A paired with 1B) is not in use. If both charging stalls are in use, then priority is given to the first car to arrive, and the second car to arrive gets what's left over.
5. The Conduits. These may seem mundane, but a big part of installing a Supercharger site, is putting in the interconnecting conduits. Putting these in, is the reason for all of the trenching and back fill that you see at most sites. Because of the high current in all of these wires, the wires are very large and therefore the conduits are very large.
   • HV lines fromt the utility substation to the transformer.
   • 480 Volt 3-Phase from the transformer to the circuit breaker cabinets.
   • 480 Volt 3-Phase from the circuit breaker cabinets to the Supercharger cabinets.
   • 400 Volt DC and signaling from the Supercharger cabinets to the pedestals.

Here is a nice diagram of these components from page E-4 of the Tesla Supercharger Application to Madison, WI:

 

[Larry Chanin]

All,

I had a chance to run a full charge on my car (with a 90kW limited battery) yesterday in Delaware on one of the 120kW chargers while collecting data. Raw data is available if anyone wants it, but here are the results, along with a quick graph. Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds.

Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC
120kW charge on newer battery times pulled from Wraithnot's data
Datapoints in the table were estimated from available data

My conclusion was a bit surprising to me. When comparing charge times on a SOC basis, Jeromes assertion that it takes only 4 extra minutes to charge an older battery pack from 20% -> 90% was nearly correct. The largest effect on the time difference is that my battery pack has degraded an extra 5% more than Wraithnot's. This means that to charge to the same "rated mile" point of ~230 miles from ~30 miles, would take me charging from 20%->95%, a time of 1 hour 7 min, while Wraithnot would be there in 52 min.

SOC	Rated Miles added (248 mile pack)	90kW Battery Time	120kW Battery Time
8->20%	30 miles	8 min	6 min
20->30%	26 miles	5 min	4 min
30->40%	24 miles	5 min	4 min
40->50%	27 miles	6 min	4 min
50->60%	25 miles	6 min	6 min
60->70%	28 miles	7 min	7 min
70->80%	28 miles	12 min	11 min
80->90%	29 miles	15 min	14 min
90->99%	31 miles	32 min	35 min
20->90%	185	58 min	52 min

View attachment 39819

Peter,

Could you please clarify what you mean by "Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC"?

If your full battery pack now has a rated full range of 248miles then wouldn't 1 rated mile left be (1/248)= .4%, not 8%?

On your chart:
Is the top curve the distance (rated range) in miles?
Is the middle curve the State of Charge in %?
Is the bottom curve the delivered power in kW?

Thanks.

Larry

 

[scaesare]

It does, and I knew that each leg of a 3 phase circuit was 277, as that's how many commercial services get their 277V lighting circuits, etc...

I'm curious as to why the separate current rating then?

Thanks for the enlightenment... most of my 3 phase knowledge is not only second hand, but rather distant in the past.

 

[Cottonwood]

It does, and I knew that each leg of a 3 phase circuit was 277, as that's how many commercial services get their 277V lighting circuits, etc...

I'm curious as to why the separate current rating then?

Thanks for the enlightenment... most of my 3 phase knowledge is not only second hand, but rather distant in the past.

This got me looking into the numbers a little more. The other popular 3-phase Voltage standard in North America is 208 Volts Delta, 120 Volts Wye. Curiously, 160A*480V/208V*90kW/120kW is 277A, remarkable close to the 280 Amp rating. The lower Voltage/higher current set seems to correspond to 90 kW. It looks like Superchargers connected to 208 Volt 3-phase service may be limited to 90 kW.

 

[apacheguy]

Curious, how many miles do you have on your MS now? What is your max rated range on a range charge? "5% more" seems like quite a lot. I know my range charges are still > 255 miles @34k. I'm wondering if the "A" packs degrade faster than the "B" packs...also wondering what your daily charge habits are and how many times you've range charges total.

Yeah, I was worried that degradation would come up at some point. Although I rarely charge to max, last week I needed the extra range. I only got 244 miles and I have an A pack with 22 K. Amazing that you get >255 with 34 K!

 

[bluetinc]

Thanks, I really wanted a complete charge cycle on the Supercharger logged as my calculations of the 120kW vs 90kW charge times didn't seem to match up with Tesla's position. I'm happy to toss the xls onto dropbox tomorrow. I've also seen gains in the past from full cycles depending on the time since the car had been either full or near empty, and as much as 10 miles. I did see a small gain this time as a full charge had last been 246 miles.

Looks like a very nice dataset- I'd definitely be interested in seeing the numerical data (dropbox works great but I can also PM you my email address). I'm curious to see how it compares to the data from my car when the superchargers maxed out at 90 kW. I'm also impressed that you charged all the way from 1 rated mile to a full range charge! I picked up a few miles of range after a few deep charges and discharges: Decreasing rated range. - Page 66 - hopefully the same happens for you.

I have a bit over 26K miles on it. I've been in the decreasing range thread for a long time, and there has seemed to be two sets of people for a while. A set of older cars that the owners (myself included) have been talking about a surprising bit of decreased range (I've gone from 275->248) and many with newer cars showing very little loss. I had written that off to the fact that the newer cars just didn't have the miles on them yet, but now that the newer cars (such as yours) have just as many or many more miles on them and are showing a good bit less loss, the A/B battery difference suddenly seems to fit much better.

My daily charge habits were 93% standard charges back when that was our only choice, then 50% during summer and 60-70% most of the time in winter. I've range charged it 20 or so times, but more important than just the number of range charges is that I stay away from the two things that are most detrimental to the battery, I never leave it sitting charged up long (esp. range charges), and I try my best to not draw large amounts of power from the batteries when they are low (well beyond Tesla's limits).

Curious, how many miles do you have on your MS now? What is your max rated range on a range charge? "5% more" seems like quite a lot. I know my range charges are still > 255 miles @34k. I'm wondering if the "A" packs degrade faster than the "B" packs...also wondering what your daily charge habits are and how many times you've range charges total.

Larry, the "reserve" charge that lets people drive 14-17 miles past 0 still shows on the battery icon and in the SOC (State of Charge). Therefor when you drive the car down to 0 rated miles left, the battery still shows ~8% under 5.8.4.

I can NOT confirm that the car stops at exactly a SOC of 0 and that Tesla doesn't stop the car prior to that (I think they do), as I've never driven my car into the reserve, but I can confirm what is at 0 "rated range". Currently 0 rated range on the old 85kWh battery is a 320V raw pack voltage, or 3.33V per cell. That should be about 8% above a floor of 3V per cell which Tesla has previously stated as the lower end of their range and matches their in car display and the data send via the API. This seems to have changed since 4.5 and before, at which 0 rated miles was a 316V pack voltage but as those numbers were in warm weather and I need to fully confirm this when the weather turns warm again, or I make it down to FL!

You have the labels for the curves correct.

Peter,

Could you please clarify what you mean by "Note 1 rated mile left = 8% SOC"?

If your full battery pack now has a rated full range of 248miles then wouldn't 1 rated mile left be (1/248)= .4%, not 8%?

On your chart:
Is the top curve the distance (rated range) in miles?
Is the middle curve the State of Charge in %?
Is the bottom curve the delivered power in kW?

Thanks.

Larry

 

[scaesare]

This got me looking into the numbers a little more. The other popular 3-phase Voltage standard in North America is 208 Volts Delta, 120 Volts Wye. Curiously, 160A*480V/208V*90kW/120kW is 277A, remarkable close to the 280 Amp rating. The lower Voltage/higher current set seems to correspond to 90 kW. It looks like Superchargers connected to 208 Volt 3-phase service may be limited to 90 kW.

Yeah interesting. I wonder if there are any installations thus far where the supply-side voltage is a limiting factor.

 

[wycolo]

> Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds. [bluetinc]

This appears to be incorrect. If 8 > 20% = 8 min and 20 > 90% = 58 min then essentially your total charge took 66 min, not 110.min.

And what's with those seconds??

Everyone seems to be trying different graphs. Since this is a response to TM's claim: "200 miles in 30 min" then for one thing using a linear time scale might best be a given, as you did here.
--

 

[bluetinc]

That's because I charged from 8% to 100% which took 110 min, while 8%-90% took ~66 min, 20%-90% took 58 min. The log file spit everything out in seconds, and I didn't spend any time cleaning it up .

Peter

> Start to end is about 1 hour 50 minutes, the X axis is seconds. [bluetinc]

This appears to be incorrect. If 8 > 20% = 8 min and 20 > 90% = 58 min then essentially your total charge took 66 min, not 110.min.

And what's with those seconds??

Everyone seems to be trying different graphs. Since this is a response to TM's claim: "200 miles in 30 min" then for one thing using a linear time scale might best be a given, as you did here.
--

 

[bluetinc]

Looks like a very nice dataset- I'd definitely be interested in seeing the numerical data (dropbox works great but I can also PM you my email address). I'm curious to see how it compares to the data from my car when the superchargers maxed out at 90 kW. I'm also impressed that you charged all the way from 1 rated mile to a full range charge! I picked up a few miles of range after a few deep charges and discharges: Decreasing rated range. - Page 66 - hopefully the same happens for you.

Here are the Drop box links for the data files I used. There are two sets of data I've merged from two computers. They seem like they vary by a few second from each other which can make the data look a little strange if you look closely but doesn't effect anything. I've also included a modified spreadsheet where I tried to properly weight raising my capacity back up to match yours (100% = 262 miles) and calculate the difference in time for that. My conclusion that, removing all factors I could, there is a 9 minute difference to charge a A pack vs. a B pack from 20->90% SOC with pack capacities of 262 range miles. Also here is an updated graph of my charge making things a bit cleaner:

Peter

Dropbox - tesla charge merged data 248.xls

Dropbox - tesla charge merged data modified for 262.xls

 

[Clemi]

Which is exactly how long it took Cinergi to reach 80% on 4.x. Further confirmation that older cars don't even receive the benefit of the improved taper curve. Argh...

While I am waitintinting for my model 3 promised to come eventually I bought a used 2013 S 60. Must drive from Utah to NH. The Navy tells me for the first 700 miles 18 hrs, which 10 are driving and 8 are chargin. Hahaha. Not really funny. Went to Supercharger in Tremonton UT. the max charge I could get was 40 amphs. Which decresed fast to 32 amph. What is wrong wih my car? TRSLA service people recommended to trade it in for a new one: WHAT A JOKE

 

[bluetinc]

Hi Clemi,

It looks like you are new here, so please take this as helpful advice. You are replying to a thread that is 4 years old, it would be much easier to get help by starting a new thread, and that way it's specific to your issue, perhaps something like "Help a newbie drive across the country" or the like. When you do that, you should include as much information as possible; How much charge was on your car when you plugged in. How warm was it. How many miles are on the car might be good to understand. Also, your units, amphs/amph isn't a unit that makes sense in your description, you will want to describe the power being delivered to your car in kW which is displayed on your dashboard during charging. 10/8 for your trip doesn't sound quite right, but I'd need to look over the route you are looking at and the charging stops you are selecting...

Good luck! Peter

While I am waitintinting for my model 3 promised to come eventually I bought a used 2013 S 60. Must drive from Utah to NH. The Navy tells me for the first 700 miles 18 hrs, which 10 are driving and 8 are chargin. Hahaha. Not really funny. Went to Supercharger in Tremonton UT. the max charge I could get was 40 amphs. Which decresed fast to 32 amph. What is wrong wih my car? TRSLA service people recommended to trade it in for a new one: WHAT A JOKE