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EV Enthusiasts are Getting it Wrong

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Sorry, I didn't mean to make AGW a focus. I'd be happy to chat about it further, but I don't think it is the topic at hand. I mentioned it merely as background to my theory that some people--perhaps a large number--like myself will be more readily convinced of the appeal of electric vehicles by appealing to their own selfish desires and not social responsibility.

That is, driving an electric vehicle is an amazing experience for reasons that go well beyond what it can and does do for the environment. In fact, from my perspective, those matters of sheer personal enjoyment (the delight of instant torque for example) are a much more significant player in my decision making. It's the first and most important thing I mention to an interested stranger. I think people have been conditioned by the Prius into thinking "alternative" vehicles by definition are boring to drive. They really perk up when they hear that electric cars are so dang fun.
 
Howabout2:

You're right. Forget the environmental arguments, except as iceing on the cake.

It's simply a better car for many people. It's more fun to drive, and cheaper to operate and maintain.

Now to get the price down.
 
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This seems like the perfect time to look into a smart grid technology and generation methods, and take a look at the developing world countries like India and China will exceed our contribution to GW in much less time than we took to do it. Groups like the IPCC have already had their own respectability called into question buy the majority of the market.

Climate science seems do differ slightly from other sciences in regards to the agenda actively pursued by many participants in the media it seems. Funding is required to study, and typically has bearing on the results. There is a lot of shock value in number people do not fully understand. It looks really neat and easy when it is put into degrees but it is much messier and less impressive when you start to look farther into it.

Oil is a separate thread,it is finite. But the API is very powerful.
Coal is cheap and plentiful and we can process heavy carbon despite its potential to pollute it remains one of the best options
Nuclear works quiet well but is still too misunderstood to be widely accepted...still

I like electricity and I think electric cars will be the future of the automobile. The success of the Tesla brand rests on people believing in them being great, instead of debating show them what it can do. 0-60 in 3.9 right???
 
The IPCC does not do its own scientific research. They review all the research on the subject that is being published and make current scientific consensus accessible to the public.

The greenhouse effect is a scientific fact and well known for over 150 years (Joseph Fourier, 1824). The increase of the greenhouse effect from combustion of fossil fuels (the Callendar effect) is somewhat newer (Svante Arrhenius 1896), but no longer disputed by serious scientists either. The questions now are "how much warmer" and "what are the consequences".

The idea that the leading scientists of the world are corrupt and just go for the easiest money, while industry and money men are honest and responsible is absolutely preposterous.

One of the greatest achievements in science is to prove your most respected colleagues wrong. If you publish a mistake, your mistake will be gleefully, repeatedly, dissected in public. If you're caught cheating, your career is dead. Such a conspiracy is impossible.

When you try to find out whether you can trust someone, you should review their track record. Here are some historical facts for you:

The Romans knew that asbestos was dangerous. Scientists warned of exceptionally short life expectancies for asbestos workers in the 1880ies. As the decennia went by, more and more scientific evidence piled up: The link between asbestos and lung fibrosis was established in the 1920ies in the UK (Nellie Kershaw). Asbestos causes cancer, asbestos causes illness also in family members of the workers, people living in the vicinity of asbestos factories also die early, even occasional contact with asbestos is dangerous, there seems to be no lower limit to what constitutes dangerous exposure... Even today, in spite of massive scientific evidence of the consequences of asbestos exposure, only 60 countries have banned its use, mostly during the nineties and early 2000s. Canada has banned use of the stuff, but still happily exports it to poor countries. They even tried to force it upon the French by demanding that the WTO overturn their ban, arguing that their chrysotile was less dangerous than previously thought, even though 95% of asbestos used in the USA was chrysotile. Tens of millions have died from asbestos, tens of millions more will, even though safe and better alternatives exist. The first industry to act upon the dangers of asbestos was the insurance business - by denying their product to asbestos workers.

Lead has been known to be extremely poisonous since ancient times. Most European countries banned white lead early in the 20th century, because it regularly poisoned painters and children. Even so, GM and Standard Oil got the go-ahead, against dire warnings from the scientific community, to add tetraethyl lead to gasoline to avoid knocking. All the way up until the ban was introduced, the automotive and oil industries insisted that lead was safe up to concentrations of 50 micrograms per liter of blood. As it turned out, this was based on thin air. Average blood lead in the American population eventually rose to almost 20 micrograms/l. The fact is that there is no safe level, and blood levels of 7 micrograms/l have measurable impact on mental health and abilities. The average American was suffering from chronic lead poisoning for decades because it was cheaper for the automotive industry to continue using lead, rather than build engines that didn't need it.

It's the same story with DDT, PCB, acid rain and the ozone hole. The arguments and tactics against reform are always the same: Overlook all signs of danger, conceal what you know from the public, deny all links and responsibility and throw up as much FUD as possible. We don't know for sure that it's dangerous, there's no alternative, and besides, you're a bunch of hysterical treehuggers anyway. When forced to, they always come up with a solution right away.

In every one of these cases, science and the environmental movement were right, the industry was wrong, often criminally so, and politicians were completely disinterested until public outrage was imminent.

Why would anybody trust these people?
 
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First, allow me to apologize to Chronopublish for unintentionally derailing his topic by offering my opinion on the matter of evangelizing electric vehicles to unfamiliar strangers by appealing to selfish benefits. I did not intend for this conversation to shift in the direction of the past few messages. I cited my doubt of AGW research as background for my perspective on electric vehicle evangelism.

I do not care to debate AGW in this forum. I can tell this is a passionate matter for some. I hoped to deflect some of that passion from those I may have offended by being jovial in my tone.

I will say this: My perspective on AGW is firm. There is no need to present arguments to me; I’ve read enough on the matter to be relatively certain I’ve seen them before. Please resume the discussion of electric vehicle evangelism.
 
Coal is cheap and plentiful and we can process heavy carbon despite its potential to pollute it remains one of the best options

Coal is not cheap, it's incredibly expensive. The environmental costs alone of mining - especially strip top mining - are enormous. We just subsidize the costs by pretending they don't exist and not charging them to the coal industry. Even if CCS worked (ha!), it's only a small part of the large amount of damage the coal industry does.
 
I forgot to say that I completely agree with howabout2 on how to best argue for EVs. Mentioning GW is certain to derail the discussion...

My next post is the result of a fumbled attempt at editing this one. Gah. Sorry.
 
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I hoped to deflect some of that passion from those I may have offended by being jovial in my tone.

I noticed that, and managed to keep my mouth shut until SteveTheTech chimed in. I'm not offended. I'm deeply worried that my two children will have to live in an increasingly uninhabitable world.

I also valued your views on EVangelism.

My perspective on AGW is firm. There is no need to present arguments to me; I’ve read enough on the matter to be relatively certain I’ve seen them before.

I'm not really trying to convince you. I'm doing my best to ensure that people who stumble upon what I regard as oil lobby fud in the forums that I read will not find it standing unchallenged.

Please resume the discussion of electric vehicle evangelism.

Yep, will do:

I completely agree with howabout2 on how to best argue for EVs. Mentioning GW on the net does no good, it's guaranteed to derail the discussion, and people have usually taken a position anyway. When discussing EVs face to face, I usually mention CO2 after all the other arguments: Due to my worry about GW I personally prefer EVs because they do not produce CO2. If my discussion partner agrees with me that GW is a threat, I might be able to dispel some myths about EVs and CO2, if not, no harm is done.

We ought to maintain a list of completely bullet proof pro EV arguments that anybody can verify by themselves. How about creating a sticky titled "Easily verified pro EV arguments" or something like that. Anybody can post suggestions, and the administrators add arguments to the original post as suggestions come in.
 
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For those who want to follow an "under the radar" development that may render the entire suite of energy and AGW and CO2 arguments moot, track focusfusion.org for the next few months to a year. It is on the cusp, we fans hope, of a breakthrough in fusion generation, using a tiny generator of direct electric power (no boiling water required). If it succeeds, electricity generation at ~ 1/20 of best US rates and capital costs could be implemented anywhere in the world that is accessible a couple of times a year for servicing. Small installations, 5MW or so; stackable for larger plants as needed.

The implications moggle the bind!
:smile: :cool:
 
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Coal is not cheap, it's incredibly expensive. The environmental costs alone of mining - especially strip top mining - are enormous. We just subsidize the costs by pretending they don't exist and not charging them to the coal industry. Even if CCS worked (ha!), it's only a small part of the large amount of damage the coal industry does.

There are inherent risks associated with all sources of energy. Mining supports many American towns and while it is easy for us on the coasts to say coal should be ruled out primarily because it has emissions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Coal_as_fuel , I know its wiki but there is just the right amount of info here). I think we need to look past the basic energy independence vs national security debate and take as close a look at coal as we can. If not coal than something that can be done using the labor and space we have on tap. (oh and not fracking, or deep sea drilling)

We really are in need of total energy reform. But everyone has an agenda and K street is still quiet busy these days.
 
Don't rule anything out. Just stop subsidizing oil and coal and let the market take care of itself. If the land and damage costs for coal hadn't been so subsidized in the first place (e.g., mining law of 1872), those towns wouldn't now be at the mercy of the mine. But that doesn't mean we should keep throwing good money after bad, especially when the product is poisoning the planet. At 13,000 deaths per year in the US alone attributable to coal, it's impossible to justify continuing to bail coal out just to keep some mines going.
 
Yes it is beneath me to spend my time on hype. When independent third parties verify workable results I'll start paying attention. If I followed every potential "breakthrough" over the years, which never panned out by the way, I'd never have any free time left. If it works, great, but I'm still not holding my breath.
 
no need to take it personally. perhaps we are a bit older. fusion has been "on the cusp" for some time now. it is hard to fault someone for being skeptical. I'm sure we share your enthusiasm and optimism. we want it to be true, and if and when it is, that is when we will express our excitement. for now, we have been disappointed too many times in the past, so we are not going to put ourselves out there and allow ourselves to be let down again.