ive seen estimates of $400,000 per station was assuming 10 stalls per station.. i dunno.. like i said rough math
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Elon fires the head of SuperChargers and much (all?) of the SuperCharger team - how will this affect new SCs?
- Thread starter wayner
- Start date
I'm not sure that's their main goal. I thought it was meant to be a selling point of buying a Tesla.
There actually hasn't been even 1 permit pulled in north america since the 4/29 announcement
sublimejackman
Member
I awlays imagined the superchargers as loss leaders. Yea some of the busier locations may break even but most probably operate at a loss. However, that money is made up in vehicle sales. I know a key reason I own a Tesla right now instead of a different EV is supercharging. This is probably why charging non-Teslas costs a bit more/requires a subscription.
X Fan
Active Member
Original goal. Now many investors are viewing (and being told) the SC network as a valued business within Tesla’s portfolio.
In the short term yes, but they are/were widely viewed as a core revenue stream as EV's gain market share.
I believe in many/most cases Tesla is not paying rent. Chargers bring business to the mall/area they're in and that's where the money is made from hosting chargers. Tesla covers all related costs of hosting superchargers though.
sublimejackman
Member
Not sure what you mean by "short term", it's been well over a decade since the SC started rolling out. If Tesla was going to make charging a key revenue stream, where are the 800v chargers, the space for trailers, and cables long enough to charge other EVs? I see SC for Tesla as nothing more than iMessage for Apple, a way to lock people into their walled garden. The only reason they opened up to other brands was regulatory pressure and that was a half measure.
I doubt we will see much more than current chargers being upgraded to V4. Short cables, no passthru space and a clunky user experience for non-Tesla owners. All with kwh prices that are way too low to make any real money.
Your math is missing demand charges by utilities. It's not a universal, but here's an example with better than SWAG level numbers from my local co-op for my closest Supercharger:
Let's say my relatively sleepy local site gets 3 cars that all pull up in a group and start charging at the same time at V3 max of ~250kW. That makes for a 750kW peak power (ignoring 15 minute window averaging) drawn in a month * $17/kW = $12750 per month, each month. They're making $0.275/kWh markup on energy at today's rates. At ~50kWh per charge session (that's a total guess), that's ~944 sessions per site per month (~32/day) to break even on power/energy costs from that one 3/8 stalls in use peak event. Again, that's without contributing anything to capital, lease, or maintenance costs.
Or in other words, Superchargers pay off if they are slammed all day every day, or have very constant but low utilization (one car in one car out all day kind of thing). Sites that peak even once in a month and then die are certainly money losers, unless they have a battery based demand management system installed.
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X Fan
Active Member
Tesla's SC network has evolved over the years with the first units typically not in gas stations, often in commercial spaces that had services. We used to love stopping in Ocala with a Panera Bread for food and Dick's for shopping while we charged. Even SAV charging limited Airport's units were good for a walk to clean bathrooms and getting out of the heat (my original X's AC was meh). As you know, many recent installations are now in gas stations with limited space for trailers, etc.
In any event, technology (120, 150, 250 and now 800) and need have evolved over the years and it's unfair to think that most of the units should have had 800V, room for trailers, etc. The walled garden no longer applies and I wonder if some day he will sell off the SC install base and as well no longer produce vehicles.
That's actually a lower break even utilization than I was estimating
Where did you get $17/kwh peak demand pricing
I mean this. It’s not complicated …investors view this piece of Tesla as a serious business.
Tesla Has Built a Charging Business to Be Taken Seriously
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...harging-network-has-become-a-serious-business
sublimejackman
Member
There really isn't a technology issue here. 800v chargers, with longer cables, exist in real ife right now. That and at least 80% of V4 supercharger locations are big enough to have the charging stalls in a passthru configuration (for trailers and non-Teslas). The CT was announced in 2019, they had five years to start rolling 800v chargers out, they didn't. They knew years ago they were going to be forced to open up to other OEMs but the cable is still too short to allow them to charge without taking two stalls. Many V4 chargers are still far from bathrooms, have no window wash, the wifi often doesn't work, etc...
Tesla still has the best charging experience, but the experience is worse now in 2024, at least for Model S/X owners, than it was in 2017/18 before the M3/MY. Lines in/around cities can be an hour+ these days. I can only imagine roadtripping a CT and it taking 60-90min to charge to 80%, this isn't to mention dropping a trailer and re-attaching it every time...
Who in their right mind would take him up on that offer? He's probably going to overdose on ketamine and fire them again in a few months.
sublimejackman
Member
Elon worship is real - if anything the fired workers will come back, appologize to Elon and work harder. They've felt the cold of losing their savior's favor. When the stakes is saving the world, no bad act is unforgivable.
This is a pretty common tactic used by abusive people to ensure loyalty.
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