Do I need 400 amp service?

[mongo]

The meter was swapped out 5 years ago when I got solar, I can take a photo of the front of it tomorrow, but I don't see any markings that are obvious match-ups for the model #.

The current entrance from the panel comes in about 12 or so inches above the foundation apron into the basement. Theoretically I could cut a new hole through the stone facade (AFAIK it's natural stone) glue in a conduit for entry, then run ROMEX through it and along to the destination... I recall something about it not being to code to run Romex through an exterior conduit though and I don't want to run separate conductors. Will have to re-check the code. I definitely am nervous due to my lack of visibility into the interior side entrance of drilling anything since I don't want to damage any of the existing wire.

The sub panel feeder wire is Aluminum 6/4 that has a jacket rating of 90C. From this chart it looks like it is actually good to 55 amps.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet3

If it truly was good to 55 amps I would just swap out the breaker at the head end if that's to code with a 60 and probably collapse my sub-panel with a couple of single slot GFCI 15 amp breakers since they do seem to exist.

That would free up a slot to then run the Tesla wall connector.

Based on how much of a PITA this is turning out to be I just might have to settle for lower speed 30 amp charging.

Or hiring a professional. I can just see the $$$ for this job.

Good point on NM-B outside, it is not rated for wet conditions. URD cable might work for you as an alternative, but what is the concern with separate conductors?
Is there space to add a second circuit through the back of the panel?

The 90C rating is needed for things like lighting fixture connections where the temp is high. For landing on connections, the 60 or 70 rating is used based on the rating of the breakers/ panel.
Great resource

 

[voip-ninja]

Good point on NM-B outside, it is not rated for wet conditions. URD cable might work for you as an alternative, but what is the concern with separate conductors?
Is there space to add a second circuit through the back of the panel?

The 90C rating is needed for things like lighting fixture connections where the temp is high. For landing on connections, the 60 or 70 rating is used based on the rating of the breakers/ panel.
Great resource

Thanks I will check that resource out.

The concern with separate conductors is I don't want to have to run conduit through my entire basement just to add a single circuit for the garage.

There only knockouts left in the panel from what I can see are the ones that are at the bottom of it. So I'd definitely have to run conduit on the outside the panel for entry into the home and would have to meet all outdoor specifications for that installation.

One thing I could possibly do is just attach an outdoor rated junction box directly underneath the existing main panel and then go straight out of the back of that into the home... similar to how the main panel is wired up. At that point it should be to code to run romex all the way out to the garage.

At least I have a lot of time to think about how I want to tackle this. I don't anticipate taking delivery of my Model 3 until AWD is available, which for my reservation is Q4 of this year.

 

[mongo]

Thanks I will check that resource out.

The concern with separate conductors is I don't want to have to run conduit through my entire basement just to add a single circuit for the garage.

There only knockouts left in the panel from what I can see are the ones that are at the bottom of it. So I'd definitely have to run conduit on the outside the panel for entry into the home and would have to meet all outdoor specifications for that installation.

One thing I could possibly do is just attach an outdoor rated junction box directly underneath the existing main panel and then go straight out of the back of that into the home... similar to how the main panel is wired up. At that point it should be to code to run romex all the way out to the garage.

At least I have a lot of time to think about how I want to tackle this. I don't anticipate taking delivery of my Model 3 until AWD is available, which for my reservation is Q4 of this year.

For real fun, you can put separate conductors into flexible metal conduit (or buy prestuffed version). If you make your own FMC, put the wires in before snaking the whole thing. Fairly impossible to pull wire through it after it gets some bends.

Can also do individual to junction to nm-b. So many options! (Not sure if adding a hole to main box back is legit)

 

[voip-ninja]

For real fun, you can put separate conductors into flexible metal conduit (or buy prestuffed version). If you make your own FMC, put the wires in before snaking the whole thing. Fairly impossible to pull wire through it after it gets some bends.

Can also do individual to junction to nm-b. So many options! (Not sure if adding a hole to main box back is legit)

I just accessed the interior entrance from the main breaker box by pulling all of the insulation out. Unfortunately instead of entering directly what they did is come down from the hole they made to the exterior wall, run it down the outside wall and in through the floor.

So what I have is a bunch of holes ranging from 1" to 2" that take individual runs or groups of runs that are popping out through the floor of the main level, from the bottom of the exterior wall and coming in.

Now, based on what I am seeing they simply ran the cables and then squirted some foam sealer into everything after they did their crappy wiring job.

There doesn't appear to be any strain relief attachment although it's entirely possible they did this on the inside of the wall where I can't access it. Cutting the Alumaflex and trying to pull it back with a new wire taped to it could end in failure if they nailed that wiring into the wall for strain relief and I don't find out until I start trying to back haul it... not to mention trying not to damage anything else.

The real problem is the 90 degree bend they are making behind the existing panel. Wire bends 90 degrees from the entrance where I can't see or access it without removing the entire main panel.

It's packed tight, so I don't know that I have room to;

1. Drill a new hole in the floor.
2. Line it up with the hole I need in the exterior wall that I also get to make.
3. Fish a new circuit up.
4. All without damaging something already in there or simply finding out that there isn't enough space in the wall itself to complete the circuit.
5. I might be screwed here.... there's also no way to do exterior conduit all the way around the house since the circuit box is 180 degrees on the other side of the house from the garage.
6. Maybe 15 amp charging is the best I'm going to get unless I want to hire a pro to renovate this. Don't want to think of the bill.

 

[mongo]

I just accessed the interior entrance from the main breaker box by pulling all of the insulation out. Unfortunately instead of entering directly what they did is come down from the hole they made to the exterior wall, run it down the outside wall and in through the floor.

So what I have is a bunch of holes ranging from 1" to 2" that take individual runs or groups of runs that are popping out through the floor of the main level, from the bottom of the exterior wall and coming in.

Now, based on what I am seeing they simply ran the cables and then squirted some foam sealer into everything after they did their crappy wiring job.

There doesn't appear to be any strain relief attachment although it's entirely possible they did this on the inside of the wall where I can't access it. Cutting the Alumaflex and trying to pull it back with a new wire taped to it could end in failure if they nailed that wiring into the wall for strain relief and I don't find out until I start trying to back haul it... not to mention trying not to damage anything else.

The real problem is the 90 degree bend they are making behind the existing panel. Wire bends 90 degrees from the entrance where I can't see or access it without removing the entire main panel.

It's packed tight, so I don't know that I have room to;

1. Drill a new hole in the floor.
2. Line it up with the hole I need in the exterior wall that I also get to make.
3. Fish a new circuit up.
4. All without damaging something already in there or simply finding out that there isn't enough space in the wall itself to complete the circuit.
5. I might be screwed here.... there's also no way to do exterior conduit all the way around the house since the circuit box is 180 degrees on the other side of the house from the garage.
6. Maybe 15 amp charging is the best I'm going to get unless I want to hire a pro to renovate this. Don't want to think of the bill.

Ugggg....
I was fortunate to have the feeds coming through the rim boost, so I could get to them from the crawl space. Plus the outside is only the main disconnect.
Is there an issue with the idea of coming in lower than the existing entry so you have a straight shot to the basement (other than the brickwork)? Which room is on the other side of the wall from the panel? Can it be opened for access?

 

[voip-ninja]

Ugggg....
I was fortunate to have the feeds coming through the rim boost, so I could get to them from the crawl space. Plus the outside is only the main disconnect.
Is there an issue with the idea of coming in lower than the existing entry so you have a straight shot to the basement (other than the brickwork)? Which room is on the other side of the wall from the panel? Can it be opened for access?

Coming in any lower would require digging it out, putting in conduit and then drilling through the massive concrete foundation (my foundation walls are about 18" thick if not 24").

Which I won't be doing anytime soon.

What I might be able to do is go to the next "bay" in the wall over, drill through the stone, drill up from the corresponding spot on the floor one bay over, then fish a line up and back haul wire. Again this then requires me to run the wire in conduit, etc. Doable, just a pain.

I have an electrical contractor I've used at my wife's business to do things as I have zero interest in doing anything commercial. I might see what he would charge me to just run the wire for the new circuit if I do the termination at both ends. Chances are he won't go this route as his name would be on the job but he didn't do all the work.

To answer your other question, there is a kitchen nook on the other side of the main entrance panel. I could remove the drywall and would then have direct access to the wiring feeds... which would make anything I need to do very straight forward.

Unfortunately my drywall patching skills completely suck and that would be a pretty good section removed (I'd probably just remove a 12" x 12" 'access port' with a drywall saw)... I'd have to hire a pro to come in and patch the drywall and hope they don't suck at it. I can't leave it exposed for ANY length of time because I have a toddler running loose in the house and that would have all of the wiring exposed for him right at arm level.

 

[mongo]

Coming in any lower would require digging it out, putting in conduit and then drilling through the massive concrete foundation (my foundation walls are about 18" thick if not 24").

Which I won't be doing anytime soon.

What I might be able to do is go to the next "bay" in the wall over, drill through the stone, drill up from the corresponding spot on the floor one bay over, then fish a line up and back haul wire. Again this then requires me to run the wire in conduit, etc. Doable, just a pain.

I have an electrical contractor I've used at my wife's business to do things as I have zero interest in doing anything commercial. I might see what he would charge me to just run the wire for the new circuit if I do the termination at both ends. Chances are he won't go this route as his name would be on the job but he didn't do all the work.

To answer your other question, there is a kitchen nook on the other side of the main entrance panel. I could remove the drywall and would then have direct access to the wiring feeds... which would make anything I need to do very straight forward.

Unfortunately my drywall patching skills completely suck and that would be a pretty good section removed (I'd probably just remove a 12" x 12" 'access port' with a drywall saw)... I'd have to hire a pro to come in and patch the drywall and hope they don't suck at it. I can't leave it exposed for ANY length of time because I have a toddler running loose in the house and that would have all of the wiring exposed for him right at arm level.

Couple quick thoughts: A bath tub plumbing access panel might solve toddler and patching issue.

How does your wall go from main floor to block? Isn't there a rim joinst/ band? Definitely don't want to make holes below the ground/ waterline.

 

[voip-ninja]

Thanks, that makes me feel a bit better. I have similarly converted all of my lighting over to LED bulbs about 5 or so years ago. Believe it or not I had over 30 can lights to do. Yikes.

I think I should be okay, but will crunch some more numbers just to be sure. If we eventually do the basement finish/remodel my wife is dreaming of then it could again become a problem, depending on what all went down there.

I wanted to circle back around.

In requesting the permit to put a new sub-panel in my house the county inspector's office requested a load calc. I did the load calc and it is coming in at 155amps which is quite surprising. The #1 culprit in my case is 9,000 watt double oven (which gets used maybe 5 hours a week).

I sent the load calc off to the inspector, if he balks, then I'm going to suggest that the HWPC can be dialed down to 32A which should alleviate any concerns he has.

 

[voip-ninja]

I wanted to circle back around.

In requesting the permit to put a new sub-panel in my house the county inspector's office requested a load calc. I did the load calc and it is coming in at 155amps which is quite surprising. The #1 culprit in my case is 9,000 watt double oven (which gets used maybe 5 hours a week).

I sent the load calc off to the inspector, if he balks, then I'm going to suggest that the HWPC can be dialed down to 32A which should alleviate any concerns he has.

The inspector said that this should not be a problem at all, just need to submit more detailed information about the HPWC, gauge wire I will use, etc., and it will all have to be in at time of inspection.