Data from Run On Less event

[Unclepaul]

Interesting comment on hi California electric prices. I believe that Diesel is also around $7/gallon in some areas currently.

Putting away my range calculator, the most important take away is that these electric trucks are doing real work for real companies, and being driven by real people. Feel that this is more of a proof of concept than worrying it actual range vs predicted range, taking into consideration that much higher speeds are being exhibited.

The trucks are delivering real products, being charged up by real charging systems.

Will be interesting to get some feedback from the drivers as how driving an electric truck compares to a traditional diesel.

Trying to parse each data point, at this early stage, is a fun exercise, but stepping back it is remarkable to see that these trucks have found a place in the market.

 

[Nack]

Oh my, secret rates, that seems sus

Or is it you don't wanna brag about how much money you have to pay these steep rates? I get that, Americans won't talk about their sex lives or money.

Not really suspicious. The information is related to my job and its data from a customer. I don't have the liberty to share at this time. You will just have to trust me, or search out power rates and you will see that its true. The industrial rates are very different than residential rates! If you draw a lot of power at the site, you get penalty costs too.

 

[Nack]

Interesting comment on hi California electric prices. I believe that Diesel is also around $7/gallon in some areas currently.

Putting away my range calculator, the most important take away is that these electric trucks are doing real work for real companies, and being driven by real people. Feel that this is more of a proof of concept than worrying it actual range vs predicted range, taking into consideration that much higher speeds are being exhibited.

The trucks are delivering real products, being charged up by real charging systems.

Will be interesting to get some feedback from the drivers as how driving an electric truck compares to a traditional diesel.

Trying to parse each data point, at this early stage, is a fun exercise, but stepping back it is remarkable to see that these trucks have found a place in the market.

Even with $7/gal diesel the TCO is still looking much better for ICE as shocking as that seems! I am sure with some changes with a dedicated line and EV specific charging rates it will turn around, but just something that caught me by surprise.

For jobs where the electric truck can meet the needs of the drive cycle the electric trucks are pretty nice. They have a lot of torque down low and you don't have as many gear shifts accelerating so its much smoother. The lack of engine noise brings your attention to other noises that can be annoying, but its better than the engine noise for hours on end. Honestly there are a lot of positives and when costs come down and charging infrastructure is there people will switch who were hesitant before. The main holdup is the lack of electric infrastructure and the inability of the utilities to meet the need in a reasonable time.

The most noticeable benefit IMO is the smaller class 6/7 delivery trucks. Just very quiet and they get up to speed easily. Perfect for stop and go and urban routes.

 

[MP3Mike]

Not really suspicious. The information is related to my job and its data from a customer. I don't have the liberty to share at this time. You will just have to trust me, or search out power rates and you will see that its true. The industrial rates are very different than residential rates! If you draw a lot of power at the site, you get penalty costs too.

Someone posted an example of a commercial pricing schedule on X:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1705939893988229233

Energy costs are $0.276/kWh for the first 60,000kWh and then $0.235/kWh for the rest. But there are demand charges of $6.33-8.53/kW. If you had a single 750kW charger which you used twice a day, 600kWh each time, it would cost you about $7,000/month in combined energy/demand charges. (That works out to about $0.19/kWh.) If you used that charger 4 times a day, costs would drop to about $0.11/kWh. (This is part of why Tesla tries to increase utilization of their Superchargers, to spread the demand charges out over more kWhs.)

Pepsi has Megapacks on site, so they can probably eliminate some of the demand charges. Maybe cutting them in half; which would lower the per kWh price to $0.11/kWh.

 

[israndy]

There MUST be something wrong with that math. I see a decimal place moved in your recitation, but I just don't get the demand charges.

If I pull more than 200kW they add $6+ per kW I go over?

So if I accidentally plug in enough devices to hit 201kW I get billed whatever the 2¢ kWh's add up to plus the $6+ for that one time when I went over? Is that EACH offense? Or the MOST I pull in the month?

If I reach 300kW during one event in a month I have to pay $633-853 in demand charges for the month or is it for each time I go over 200kW? Are they cumulative (201 peak + 202 peak + 203...) or the biggest I pull in a single peak or hour or day or month? Can I choose how many kW we pull before we go into demand charges or is all industrial electricity set to 200kW?

 

[MP3Mike]

There MUST be something wrong with that math. I see a decimal place moved in your recitation, but I just don't get the demand charges.

If I pull more than 200kW they add $6+ per kW I go over?

Demand charges are normally calculated for the maximum load you draw for the month.

So if I accidentally plug in enough devices to hit 201kW I get billed whatever the 2¢ kWh's add up to plus the $6+ for that one time when I went over? Is that EACH offense? Or the MOST I pull in the month?

If I reach 300kW during one event in a month I have to pay $633-853 in demand charges for the month or is it for each time I go over 200kW? Are they cumulative (201 peak + 202 peak + 203...) or the biggest I pull in a single peak or hour or day or month? Can I choose how many kW we pull before we go into demand charges or is all industrial electricity set to 200kW?

I think you missed a very important part of the fee schedule:

For the first 200kW you draw you are charged $8.53 per kW. For any kW over that you are charged $7.98/kW.

For example, if you only use electricity once for the entire month to charge a Tesla Semi at 750kW for a single hour, it would cost you:

• Demand charge for the first 200kW: 200 * $8.53 = $1,706
• Demand charge for the next 550kW: 550 * $7.98 = $4,389
• Energy charge for the 750kWh: 750 * 0.0276 = $20.70

Total cost for that one-hour charge would be $6,115.70. (Or ~$8.15 per kWh.) If you charged another semi at 750kW and it overlapped the other semi charging, you would incur additional demand charges of $5,985, 750 * $7.98, in addition to the $20.70 of energy.

Of course, once you have done that you could use up to 750kW continuously for the month and only pay for the additional energy. So, the more you use the cheaper each individual kWh becomes.

This is why it is next to impossible to make money on DC fast charging sites that don't get very much usage. The first charge in the billing month incurs huge demand charges, and you need lots of use over the month to spread that cost over. Or the one holiday that has the site full at maximum capacity maxes out your demand charges. (The worst possible thing is if a high usage holiday weekend crosses two billing periods.)

 

[mongo]

High usage case:
4 chargers at 750kW =3000 kW
1,706 + 2800*7.98 = 23,770 demand
/12 trucks/ 28 days = $70.74 demand per charge
+ 20.70 for kWh = $91.44
/$6 a gallon for diesel = 15 gallons
*10 MPG = 150 mile ICE range equivalent

Add a megapack and demand could drop by 1000kW
Or throttle charging and average 750*12/24 = 375kW

FWIW, Silicon Valley Power Santa Clara night rate is sub $0.20/kWh with no demand charge.
Rates and Fees | Silicon Valley Power

 

[Rocky_H]

Good gosh! These high rates for both fuel and electricity are blowing my mind. I just got back from a trip from Boise to Salt Lake City, and I was seeing 4-something for the fuel prices, not 6 or 7 dollars. And our electricity rates in Idaho are hilariously cheap, at about 9 cents, not 20.

 

[Nack]

High usage case:
4 chargers at 750kW =3000 kW
1,706 + 2800*7.98 = 23,770 demand
/12 trucks/ 28 days = $70.74 demand per charge
+ 20.70 for kWh = $91.44
/$6 a gallon for diesel = 15 gallons
*10 MPG = 150 mile ICE range equivalent

Add a megapack and demand could drop by 1000kW
Or throttle charging and average 750*12/24 = 375kW

FWIW, Silicon Valley Power Santa Clara night rate is sub $0.20/kWh with no demand charge.
Rates and Fees | Silicon Valley Power

Keep in mind, the depot/customer has to pay for the infrastructure upgrades and the charging equipment which goes into the TCO calculation.

I need to look at the power bill again to see what may be missing. There was some great explanation of demand charges though so thanks for that. Im familiar they exist but not the details.

With a microgrid you can help decrease the demand charges and load up on cheap off cycle power which definitely helps. Requires a high upfront investment though so not sure how common it will be initially.

 

[israndy]

Trying to follow, you said:

High usage case:
4 chargers at 750kW =3000 kW

Makes sense

1,706 + 2800*7.98 = 23,770 demand

First 200kW draw * $8.53 = $1,706
$1,706 + (2800*$7.98) = $24,050

/12 trucks/ 28 days = $70.74 demand per charge

336 individual charges a month
$24,050/336 = $71.58 is each charge's share of the demand fees

+ 20.70 for kWh = $91.44

750 * 2.76¢ = $20.70 energy costs
$20.70 + $71.58 = $92.28 cost of electricity to charge a Semi for almost 500 miles

/$6 a gallon for diesel = 15 gallons
*10 MPG = 150 mile ICE range equivalent

Makes sense

Add a megapack and demand could drop by 1000kW
Or throttle charging and average 750*12/24 = 375kW

So a 1000 kWh MegaPack can discharge at 1C, but only for 1000kWh so I am curious how the math would work out. Really only one charge for each MegaPack. If you are charging 12 trucks a day that means it could take two hours of charging for each truck charge, assuming they are spaced every two hours, so that only cuts the demand rate in half. Unless you get more than one MegaPack, if you had 10 they could be pulling 420kW combined all the time so they could charge all the trucks once a day.

Not sure what that last statement means, 750kW is the charge rate of a truck, 12 trucks would pull 9000kW stretched out over a 24 hour period, so charging all the trucks constantly for 24 hours a day? When would they discharge? How do you do that with only 4 chargers. Not sure what that last bit is about.

 

[mongo]

Trying to follow, you said:

Makes sense

First 200kW draw * $8.53 = $1,706
$1,706 + (2800*$7.98) = $24,050

336 individual charges a month
$24,050/336 = $71.58 is each charge's share of the demand fees

750 * 2.76¢ = $20.70 energy costs
$20.70 + $71.58 = $92.28 cost of electricity to charge a Semi for almost 500 miles

Makes sense

So a 1000 kWh MegaPack can discharge at 1C, but only for 1000kWh so I am curious how the math would work out. Really only one charge for each MegaPack. If you are charging 12 trucks a day that means it could take two hours of charging for each truck charge, assuming they are spaced every two hours, so that only cuts the demand rate in half. Unless you get more than one MegaPack, if you had 10 they could be pulling 420kW combined all the time so they could charge all the trucks once a day.

Not sure what that last statement means, 750kW is the charge rate of a truck, 12 trucks would pull 9000kW stretched out over a 24 hour period, so charging all the trucks constantly for 24 hours a day? When would they discharge? How do you do that with only 4 chargers. Not sure what that last bit is about.

Last part is multiple Megapacks/ extra trucks/ maximum time shifting.
Mega pack holds 3.9MWh and can output @ 1.9MW or 1MW. So you can get 4 trucks from just it. Or, with 4 posts and 3x4 trucks, eliminate 1 MW of demand. 16 trucks 4x4, cut by at least 750kW.
Good catch on my lack of addition typo!

 

[Nack]

It looks like the math for a recent power bill was about $1.25/kWh. $2.50 per mile @ 2kWh/mi average consumption.

One thing not mentioned earlier which is generation charges around $0.095 and there are demand charges here too.

EV charging should be cheaper at a special EV rate, but I’m not sure what that is. There could also be improvement if the customer changes their plan, not sure its optimized for this level of power draw.

Compare to diesel $7/gal and 9mi/gal = about $0.77 per mile. Of course maintenance costs will be higher here so that will increase cost to operate.


Just trying to give an example as I was pretty shocked at the cost to operate! Maybe in the PNW with hydro power and a microgrid could you get somewhere near $0.09/kWh. Seems reality is very different than what is advertised when just looking at base rates.

 

[Nack]

Saw this article today which I thought had some good insights

Electric big rigs are going farther and charging faster

Heavy-duty battery-powered trucks running real cargo on U.S. roads are going hundreds of miles per charge — a good sign for cutting trucking emissions.

www.canarymedia.com

 

[MP3Mike]

Truck 3 had a busy day yesterday, 1076 miles:

 

[Nack]

Thats a lot of distance! Cool to see its even possible.

Another article:

PepsiCo on Tesla Semi's real-world hauling performance

PepsiCo reveals how the Tesla Semi has operated in its fleet, including all-important details on range and weight, which still leave something to be desired.

www.ccjdigital.com

 

[MP3Mike]

The most interesting part of that article;

The three specific Semis reporting data to the Run On Less program "are driving slip-seated long-haul transport routes" totaling 19,122 miles since the start of the program on Sept. 11.

Now for the most crucial, previously hidden detail: "Approximately 65% of miles driven during the first two weeks of Run on Less were loaded to a gross vehicle weight plus load of over 70,000 pounds," PepsiCo wrote.

 

[navguy12]

Thats a lot of distance! Cool to see its even possible.

Another article:

PepsiCo on Tesla Semi's real-world hauling performance

PepsiCo reveals how the Tesla Semi has operated in its fleet, including all-important details on range and weight, which still leave something to be desired.

www.ccjdigital.com

The article itself and the comments to that article are not quite hostile but certainly sceptical of the concept of a long distance BEV truck.

I am not a subject matter expert on long distance trucking and have a question regarding:

Data from the Run On Less event shows some Semis doing up to 800 miles in one day, but that's with charging breaks, and almost certainly not fully loaded

How many miles, in one day, can an ICE semi drive without refuelling, assuming a full 80k weight?

 

[mongo]

The article itself and the comments to that article are not quite hostile but certainly sceptical of the concept of a long distance BEV truck.

I am not a subject matter expert on long distance trucking and have a question regarding:



How many miles, in one day, can an ICE semi drive without refuelling, assuming a full 80k weight?

How much of the 80k is fuel? (It impacts net load)
300 gallons in 2 tanks lets it go all day, 65PH * 24 = 1,570 miles, only need 5.2 MPG to achieve that.

 

[Nack]

The article itself and the comments to that article are not quite hostile but certainly sceptical of the concept of a long distance BEV truck.

I am not a subject matter expert on long distance trucking and have a question regarding:



How many miles, in one day, can an ICE semi drive without refuelling, assuming a full 80k weight?

A modern ICE semi sold today can do roughly 1200 miles without refueling.

Due to driver regulations many longhaul trucks average about 600miles a day at speeds allowed in most of the country. If you are in an area that allows 80mph then you can get 700+.

These are just general numbers since there is so much variation in configurations but it lets you get an idea what the current ICE vehicles do as a benchmark.

I think everyone who works in the industry is pretty skeptical of the claims by a lot of speculators and journalists. The CCJ is naturally aimed at people in the industry so optimistic statements wont get a lot of applause.

The EV trucks are certainly improving and will work on many routes though. Targeting long haul trucking is pretty much on no ones radar due to the challenges.

Before anyone says the Tesla trucks are long haul, they are not. They are regional haul vehicles as they return to base regularly and don’t travel big distances between points. Long haul would need a real sleeper at a minimum. It can get there with a sleeper addition and better infrastructure but thats still a ways out from the looks of it.

 

[mongo]

Before anyone says the Tesla trucks are long haul, they are not. They are regional haul vehicles as they return to base regularly and don’t travel big distances between points. Long haul would need a real sleeper at a minimum. It can get there with a sleeper addition and better infrastructure but thats still a ways out from the looks of it.

Post #56 begs to differ

The most interesting part of that article;

The three specific Semis reporting data to the Run On Less program "are driving slip-seated long-haul transport routes" totaling 19,122 miles since the start of the program on Sept. 11.

What Is Slip Seating In the Trucking Industry? – Freight Course

Although slip seating is not a historical norm or a generally favorable practice among truckers, it’s becoming increasingly popular among carriers due to its financial and operational benefits.
...
The most important benefit of slip seating is that it allows carriers and fleet managers to maximize truck and equipment utilization. From an operational perspective, it allows trucking companies to enable round-the-clock operations.