Cruise Control unavailable, with a twist (loss of all driver assistance features too)

[Andyw2100]

Actually, there is something extremely dangerous about doing exactly that. This is why every single car with cruise control tells you not to do it, that's why every driver's ed program tells you not to do it, that's why many jurisdictions have it in their driver's handbooks for new drivers. It can very quickly be DEADLY, if you lose traction, cruise control will generally compensate by flooring it, the absolute worst possible outcome.

I am reasonably certain, from having read up on this a bit after posting, that none of the sources that advise against using cruise control on wet roads did so factoring in traction control, etc. The Model S, should it lose traction, is most definitely not going to "floor it."

On the grand scale of functionality with risk if operated incorrectly, providing a speed-only cruise would be quite low on the scale as compared to much of the other functionality Tesla is already providing. They have given us the ability to change lanes automatically, without checking to make sure we're not changing lanes into one that has a vehicle in it approaching at a high rate of speed. They have given us the ability to drive hands-free while reading books at 85 MPH! No, I'm not suggesting that this is the proper behavior, and of course neither does Tesla, but it was being done. People can use the functionality Tesla has provided in ways that are far riskier than enabling a speed-only cruise setting on a wet road.

Edit: If car manufacturers really believed that using cruise control on wet roads was incredibly dangerous, why not just disable the cruise option when the wipers are on? Do you think the only reason they aren't doing this is that they fear people would then not use their wipers as a way to circumvent the safety measure?

 

[green1]

I am reasonably certain, from having read up on this a bit after posting, that none of the sources that advise against using cruise control on wet roads did so factoring in traction control, etc. The Model S, should it lose traction, is most definitely not going to "floor it."

I have never met a traction control system (the MS included) that was 100% reliable at this. Traction control looks for one wheel spinning faster than the other, if traction is lost in an even way, it has no way to know that the wheels are spinning. So yes, in that situation there's a high risk of it accelerating when it shouldn't, and then it only takes a small difference between the tires to develop and throw you hard in to the ditch.

If none of the sources advocating against it took traction control in to account, how do you explain EVERY manufacturer continuing to advocate against it on their traction control equipped vehicles?

- - - Updated - - -

On the grand scale of functionality with risk if operated incorrectly, providing a speed-only cruise would be quite low on the scale as compared to much of the other functionality Tesla is already providing. They have given us the ability to change lanes automatically, without checking to make sure we're not changing lanes into one that has a vehicle in it approaching at a high rate of speed. They have given us the ability to drive hands-free while reading books at 85 MPH! No, I'm not suggesting that this is the proper behavior, and of course neither does Tesla, but it was being done. People can use the functionality Tesla has provided in ways that are far riskier than enabling a speed-only cruise setting on a wet road.

There's a huge difference between providing a feature that can be both used properly, and abused, and specifically changing the design of the vehicle to accommodate a use case that is always recommended against.

 

[Andyw2100]

If none of the sources advocating against it took traction control in to account, how do you explain EVERY manufacturer continuing to advocate against it on their traction control equipped vehicles?

If it was that big of a deal, and that dangerous, how do you explain the manufacturers not disabling cruise control when the windshield wipers are on?

There's a huge difference between providing a feature that can be both used properly, and abused, and specifically changing the design of the vehicle to accommodate a use case that is always recommended against.

This misses the gigantic point, that I've made previously, which is that there are many, MANY times when TACC becomes unavailable when the road conditions are perfectly clear and dry. Sometimes this is due to the fact that the radar may have become obstructed earlier in the trip and other times this is due to the fact that Tesla's radar and Driver Assistance features are not perfect and occasionally "wig out" and just won't work for no apparent reason whatsoever. (See the following post for an example of this: Driver Assistance Features Unavailable)

At these times we should have basic cruise functionality.

Edit -- By the way, I just checked the Tesla manual, and it doesn't say not to use TACC in the rain. This is what it says:

"Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on winding roads with sharp curves, on icy or slippery road surfaces, or when weather conditions (such as heavy rain, snow, fog, etc) make it inappropriate to drive at a consistent speed. Traffic Aware Cruise Control does not adapt driving speed based on road and driving conditions."

It specifically mentions "heavy rain" because of the inappropriateness of maintaining a consistent speed in heavy rain, and "icy or slippery road surfaces." It says nothing about simply wet roads or light/normal rain.

 

[green1]

If it was that big of a deal, and that dangerous, how do you explain the manufacturers not disabling cruise control when the windshield wipers are on?

not all uses of windshield wipers involve rain? some of us like to get the bugs off too...
But you're also missing the point that modifying a mostly positive feature to disable it in a corner case is a completely different matter than redesigning an existing feature just so it can be used in the exact cases you've said it should never be used in.

 

[Cyclone]

Without getting into the should/should not allow cruise in inclement weather (b/c there are cases reported where the unit just failed temporarily or permanently until repair), Tesla could make driver assistance features being disabled and regular cruise very easy to declare to the user - switch to the speed tape display of classic cars when TACC is unavailable. In v6, the speed tape UI still allowed for collision avoidance notification and blind spot notification, so there is no reason why it couldn't continue to exist in v7 that way. And when speed tapes are shown, the UI is screaming that something is not the norm on an AP car.

This also has the added benefit of keeping visibility on how things look to Classic owners and could help make sure enhancements continue to be brought into the classic display. For instance, even when classic hill hold engages in v7, we don't get the "((H))" light to indicate it. This could easily be done on classics if they wanted to. If this classic display is used on AP cars in such a limited fashion, stuff like that icon could finally be ported over for all of us.

 

[green1]

Considering how many things Tesla has on their plate right now, how much effort do you think they should spend to re-design a feature just to allow it to work in only two situations, one of which they expressly state in their manual it should never be used in, and the other that is when the car is broken and should be fixed anyway?

I certainly hope they spend their limited resources elsewhere.

 

[Andyw2100]

But you're also missing the point that modifying a mostly positive feature to disable it in a corner case is a completely different matter than redesigning an existing feature just so it can be used in the exact cases you've said it should never be used in.

Considering how many things Tesla has on their plate right now, how much effort do you think they should spend to re-design a feature just to allow it to work in only two situations, one of which they expressly state in their manual it should never be used in, and the other that is when the car is broken and should be fixed anyway?

Apparently you haven't seen my edit above. They actually don't expressly state in their manual not to use cruise control in the rain or on wet roads. In fact their wording implies that it can be used in light to moderate rain.

And this answer of "Tesla has too much on their plates" could be an answer for just about anything. Everyone has different priorities. It's up to Tesla to figure out how to get done what needs to get done. In my opinion one way or the other this needs to get done.

 

[green1]

Apparently you haven't seen my edit above. They actually don't expressly state in their manual not to use cruise control in the rain or on wet roads. In fact their wording implies that it can be used in light to moderate rain.

https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/d..._7.1_das_ap_north_america_r20160112_en_us.pdf

Warning:
Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise
Control on winding roads with sharp
curves, on icy or slippery road surfaces, or
when weather conditions (such as heav
yrain, snow, fog, etc) make it inappropriate
to drive at a consistent speed. Traffic
Aware Cruise Control does not adapt
driving speed based on road and driving
conditions.

And this answer of "Tesla has too much on their plates" could be an answer for just about anything. Everyone has different priorities. It's up to Tesla to figure out how to get done what needs to get done. In my opinion one way or the other this needs to get done.

Why would they prioritize allowing something that's expressly forbidden in their manual???
We're not talking "light rain" here, we're talking snow packed in to the sensor!

 

[Andyw2100]

https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/d..._7.1_das_ap_north_america_r20160112_en_us.pdf




Why would they prioritize allowing something that's expressly forbidden in their manual???
We're not talking "light rain" here, we're talking snow packed in to the sensor!

Your point was that cruise control should not be used on wet roads, and that all manufacturers, including Tesla, warned against it. I pointed out that you were wrong. You're now attempting to change the argument.

Having the radar unit obstructed with the road merely wet is by no means an edge case. Driving through flurries, as I did yesterday, can result in the radar unit being obstructed. Driving through a little slush on the way to a wet highway can result in the radar unit being obstructed. These are not edge cases.

 

[green1]

Your point was that cruise control should not be used on wet roads, and that all manufacturers, including Tesla, warned against it. I pointed out that you were wrong. You're now attempting to change the argument.

I've changed nothing. It said in the manual not to use it in heavy rain. If you think it SHOULD be used when the road is wet, show where that's stated in the manual.

Tesla shouldn't prioritize changing a feature just so that it can be used in the exact way they tell you not to.

 

[Andyw2100]

I've changed nothing. It said in the manual not to use it in heavy rain. If you think it SHOULD be used when the road is wet, show where that's stated in the manual.

Tesla shouldn't prioritize changing a feature just so that it can be used in the exact way they tell you not to.

My point is that they don't tell you not to.

They don't explicitly tell you to use it in the rain or on wet roads any more than they explicitly tell you to use it while the sun is shining. Since they explicitly say not to use it in "heavy rain" the clear implication is that it is acceptable to use it in light and moderate rain. That's how the English language and logic work. Tesla would not have used the word "heavy" to modify "rain" if their intention was that the cruise control not be used in the rain at all. They would simply have said it should not be used in the rain.

 

[green1]

My point is that they don't tell you not to.

I quoted where they tell you not to. And even if you want to make the ridiculous argument that they didn't specify exactly how much water is too much, you can't take a giant leap from there and say that a slightly damp road is equal to a snow and slushed covered road that would fill the radar unit. and therefore they should spend tight resources modifying the car to let you use cruise control in a blizzard.

 

[meloccom]

I don't live in a snow-belt area but perhaps someone can experiment with something like Neverfrost?

 

[Andyw2100]

I quoted where they tell you not to. And even if you want to make the ridiculous argument that they didn't specify exactly how much water is too much, you can't take a giant leap from there and say that a slightly damp road is equal to a snow and slushed covered road that would fill the radar unit. and therefore they should spend tight resources modifying the car to let you use cruise control in a blizzard.

You're clearly just posting for the sake of posting and arguing now, so I'm not going to engage with you on this topic any further. People reading this thread can make up their own minds about who is right and has been making valid points and who isn't and hasn't been.

I have made it clear several times that it takes far less than a blizzard to obstruct the radar unit, but you keep ignoring those posts and talking about scenarios that don't exist, which is why I'm not going to continue this discussion.

 

[dhanson865]

not all uses of windshield wipers involve rain? some of us like to get the bugs off too...
But you're also missing the point that modifying a mostly positive feature to disable it in a corner case is a completely different matter than redesigning an existing feature just so it can be used in the exact cases you've said it should never be used in.

Not all uses of a car with snow on it involve driving on roads with snow or water on them. Some of us live in neighborhoods with snow and main roads that are clear too...
But you're also missing the point that you are modifying the conversation to include only your view of how things should be which is a completely different matter than having a discussion with people about what they started talking about.

 

[green1]

Not all uses of a car with snow on it involve driving on roads with snow or water on them. Some of us live in neighborhoods with snow and main roads that are clear too...
But you're also missing the point that you are modifying the conversation to include only your view of how things should be which is a completely different matter than having a discussion with people about what they started talking about.

And you completely missed that "modifying an existing feature that has worked fine for many decades, to add a specific restriction" is a completely different exercise from "modifying an existing working product to remove a restriction that the vast majority of the time conflicts with your explicit statements on how to use the product"

Anyway, I'm done arguing here. I sincerely hope that Tesla never spends even a minute of their precious resources helping you try to kill yourself and other road users.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Hi all, just had this happen to my wife. No snow here. Bright sunny day. She contacted Tesla. They are pulling the logs. I forwarded the pics from this thread to her and she went out and waved her hand in front of the camera/sensor. When she got back in the car, all was normal. Warning disappeared. (I believe she rebooted before getting out of the car, but it was still there).

She said it happened when she was pulling off an exit ramp. Car gave her an audible warning, then flashed the "Cruise control disabled" comment. I told her the car was being snarky and telling her to slow down. We'll see if it happens again on the way home.

Only other thought is that we haven't been able to wash the car recently and have been driving it a lot. But it's not too dirty.

PS--

Thanks for posting the pics, etc... My wife was able to find the sensor/camera with the pics.

 

[pedriscoll]

I had the "Driver Assistance Features Unavailable" error for some time. The SC initially did a reset of the driver assistance system, which included recalibrating the radar and camera. When this did not work, they replaced the camera. Since then I have not had the issue occur.

 

[maddog1762]

Same problem and same solution

I had the "Driver Assistance Features Unavailable" error for some time. The SC initially did a reset of the driver assistance system, which included recalibrating the radar and camera. When this did not work, they replaced the camera. Since then I have not had the issue occur.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Just a follow up. Tesla service center inspected the car, logs, etc... And bumped it up to engineering. They could not find anything wrong. However they did find that we maybe having some problems with our high Amp charging (standard, not dual charger here). They are checking those logs now and will contact us if anything needs to be fixed. Excellent and accommodating service.