An alien space craft passing by would've though we haven't figured our refrigeration yet and are still mining ice from the arctic. No wonder we don't have First Contact yet. LOL
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Climate Change Denial
- Thread starter mspohr
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An alien space craft passing by would've though we haven't figured our refrigeration yet and are still mining ice from the arctic. No wonder we don't have First Contact yet. LOL
Hey, welcome back. How's Cancun? Was Ted there too?
Of course, and I have zero delusions about changing their modus operandi, let alone their opinions. However, I think it's important that these people are answered directly so that others get to hear rational arguments and positions against some of these irrational attacks. The displacement of sane debate with "who can shout loudest wins" is one of the greatest dangers to civilization imho.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree with you more.
Personally, I'm surprised people are still willing to look like complete Luddites by denying the very solid body of scientific evidence that we have a big threat on our hands. They will argue using the most tenuous and faulty arguments to counter a wall of solid data.
I tend to think some people are wired such that they really don't care in what condition they leave our planet in when they are gone. It's the same kind of person who finishes their drink and throws the cup on the ground. Not their problem!
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More irrefutable evidence of warming. Satellite measurements of the energy imbalance coupled with increasing ocean heat content shows the planets energy imbalance doubled over the last several years.
NASA, NOAA Scientists: Earth’s Energy Imbalance Has Doubled
Researchers have found that Earth’s energy imbalance approximately doubled during the 14-year period from 2005 to 2019. Earth's climate is determined by a delicate balance between how much of the Sun's radiative energy is absorbed in the atmosphere and at the surface and how much thermal infrared
scitechdaily.com
I couldn't agree with you more.
Personally, I'm surprised people are still willing to look like complete Luddites by denying the very solid body of scientific evidence that we have a big threat on our hands. They will argue using the most tenuous and faulty arguments to counter a wall of solid data.
I tend to think some people are wired such that they really don't care in what condition they leave our planet in when they are gone. It's the same kind of person who finishes their drink and throws the cup on the ground. Not their problem!
I don't know if they're luddites. I think they're just selfish.
Assuming some spectrum of hedonism is normally distributed among the entire global population, there is a large number of people out there that simply don't give AF about others. Like they may pretend to in order to coexist in society. But when it comes down to it, their natural instincts, desires, and motivations are all self-serving. They want to get theirs; and any bending to give to someone else is considered stealing.
I don't mean stealing money. I mean stealing "liberties and rights". Basically asking them to even think of others is asking them to behave differently. Therefore they will do everything possible (through their own hedonist rationalizations) to keep themselves happy.
Climate change is just an omnipresent burden they will try to shirk. Maybe they will drive an EV because they personally want to drive an EV. But they sure as heck won't be "forced" to reduce carbon emissions if they don't have to.
Soooooo I wonder if the solution to climate change is to simply make going renewable more valuable to the hedonist. Instead of telling the selfish person they need to "be woke to the climate issue", there could be other mechanisms to reward certain types of behaviors that actually help the selfish while also maybe helping the whole. Tesla vehicles are kind of an example of this. Give some gearhead a car that outperforms a 911 for $60k and maybe they'll save the environment while also driving fast AF.
Unfortunately, I'm not very creative and can't think of any other good ideas at the moment. And I'm sure any idea will cost tax/infrastructure money which the selfish person doesn't want to pay. Sigh.
While I agree that there are ways to motivate people (look at the the current use of lotteries to get people to vaccinate), the real problem is that many people find it difficult to correctly evaluate what is in their own best interests. One of the most chilling discoveries of the 20th century was that you could manipulate people into the most abominable acts and beliefs by various mass-media techniques. And today, this has been magnified by easy and cheap access to various mass-media forms (FB, YouTube etc) that were unimaginable 100 years ago. The result is that every crackpot now has a megaphone that magnifies his ideas, insane or otherwise, by 1000-fold.
When you combine this with an education system that focuses on vocational training rather then skills such as critical and rational thinking, you end up in the mess we are in .. with YouTube crackpots putting out videos full of woo-woo nonsense that uses a pseudo-scientific vocabulary to fool people into believing all sorts of utter nonsense.
The current vaccination mess is a perfect example. Vaccination is free and safe, and will prevent you getting sick from a very nasty and sometimes fatal disease. And yet far too many people are avoiding getting vaccinated for reasons that are patently absurd. Self-interest distorted to the point of self-destruction. The danger, of course, comes when that self-destruction causes collateral damage to innocent bystanders, which is where it becomes totally unacceptable. As is the case with climate change denial and anti-vaccination.
Great post. Not sure I agree that "education system that focuses on vocational training" is accurate. Maybe in some isolated settings but for the most part, nothing vocational is taught. Which at some point is a detriment.
True critical thinking is sometimes in college and sometimes grad school and often never. Probably the most important comes from parents. In which case, there is little hope.
True critical thinking is sometimes in college and sometimes grad school and often never. Probably the most important comes from parents. In which case, there is little hope.
There’s nothing wrong with votech… I went through a votech instead of high school and got a GED. It’s not like every blue collar working person also wants to watch the polar ice caps melt.
You don’t need some AP coursework or some international baccalaureate to acquire a body of knowledge to make decisions that help or harm others and our common resources.
To be honest I can see why so many people hate the “liberals” who sometimes lord their intellect over others. It literally creates a mentality of people who make it a point to do the opposite of some educated smartass just because the less educated person doesn’t want to be manipulated by the smartass.
The education class system creates the problem for a Dr Fauci to explain the merits of a vaccine or Bill Gates talking about whatever. The more they say “follow the science” the more some people will want these two intellectuals to sod off. So then some of the intellectuals think the disobedience is caused by ignorance or stupidity, when it’s really just defiance for the sake of not wanting to be aligned with people they don’t like.
Ultimately the problem is we have to share this planet with billions of people who don’t like to share. And billions more who don’t have the resources to share since they can barely put food on the table. And there’s a lot of money to be made milking these billions of self-interested folks of their scarce resources than there is money to be made trying to help reduce carbon emissions or increase an vaccination rate.
You don’t need some AP coursework or some international baccalaureate to acquire a body of knowledge to make decisions that help or harm others and our common resources.
To be honest I can see why so many people hate the “liberals” who sometimes lord their intellect over others. It literally creates a mentality of people who make it a point to do the opposite of some educated smartass just because the less educated person doesn’t want to be manipulated by the smartass.
The education class system creates the problem for a Dr Fauci to explain the merits of a vaccine or Bill Gates talking about whatever. The more they say “follow the science” the more some people will want these two intellectuals to sod off. So then some of the intellectuals think the disobedience is caused by ignorance or stupidity, when it’s really just defiance for the sake of not wanting to be aligned with people they don’t like.
Ultimately the problem is we have to share this planet with billions of people who don’t like to share. And billions more who don’t have the resources to share since they can barely put food on the table. And there’s a lot of money to be made milking these billions of self-interested folks of their scarce resources than there is money to be made trying to help reduce carbon emissions or increase an vaccination rate.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Which is quite ignorant and stupid when that defiance is likely to harm yourself and those you care about, let alone society as a whole.
These people don’t like society… and they are as numerous as the people who are on the other side. Calling either group stupid hasn’t really gotten us very far in the last few centuries.
I think this should help people respect Elon more… he’s found a way to earn astronomical value pushing green initiatives. There is potentially more money to be made helping society than burning fossil fuels. If there’s one thing to get people on board with a common cause, it’s to make the participants feel like they’re going to make lots of money.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
That's clearly not accurate. Unless you are a psychopath most people have some degree of concern for others, that's what allows a society to function. It also doesn't address the fact that they act against their own self interest just so they aren't "aligned with people they don’t like."
Ok, so let's try this a different way. Instead of trying to prove me wrong (which is very easy to do and I'm sure is a source of many "likes")... try to take a shot at expressing why you think people do not act the way you wish they would act.
But here's the challenge. Try to figure out what you believe is the issue without implying they're stupid, lack education, or are ignoring facts. Because clearly the other side doesn't think they're stupid. They are often highly educated (maybe not in the sciences), and they have their own "facts". Nobody ever wins support based on facts. We've lived through 45 knowing facts mean nothing.
Anyway, try to find a new/different perspective ... we could all benefit from something new and different instead of the same spin cycle in this thread.
As entertaining as eevee-fan's posts are, that type of polarization of snark doesn't actually help build empathy or establish a way for progress. It's just some form of trolling for likes that pervades Facebook and the other echo chambers where people sit around making fun of people who they don't like or agree with.
PS, I believe in climate change and I believe we can do things to help make the world a better place. But it's also obvious to me the established tactics of hitting the non-believers with 'facts' and making fun of the other side isn't really working.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I have no idea how to communicate with people who deny facts in the face of overwhelming evidence, and I have tried.
That's too bad. Trying the same tactic to communicate over and over and over and over and over and over and over without positive result must be frustrating.
Ignoring the extremes, I think there's been subtle improvements in how I've seen some people act. But I agree with you. I grew up in the Midwest but now live in California. Getting away from the people you disagree with helps your own mental health more than trying to convince a bunch of people to see your PoV.
But I think throwing in the towel and giving up isn't ideal either because it just feeds the divisiveness.
I am seeking ways to try and help... but it's also easy for me to make excuses lol. So I'm not doing as much as others.
One fun anecdote... a buddy of mine from high school went from driving lifted TJs to a hybrid Ford a few years ago. I'm not going to take 100% credit for his behavior change, but folks did eventually get through to him. Maybe it was an appeal that every little bit helps the world for his kids. Or maybe it was rising gas prices shocked the "let me drive around in this TJ all the time" mentality. Anyway, he's slowly came around that maybe doing a few small things wasn't as much of a subtraction of his quality of life as he thought. If there's progress to be made; it'll be slow and take many touch points. I'm glad some people out there are slowly making progress.
Don't take away his guns though.
The Dunning Kruger Effect or Why Stupid People Think They Are Smart - Learning Mind
The theory of the Dunning Kruger Effect was developed by David Dunning and Justin Kruger. The theory is also commonly known as 'Mount Stupid'.
www.learning-mind.com
I recently read Shankar Vedantam's Useful Delusions. Shankar is the host of NPR's podcast Hidden Brain and author of the book by the same name.
I think a lot of the material he addresses is pertinent to this thread and to the very recent discussion of the impotence of facts in changing minds. In general, as a hardcore rationalist, skeptic (in the scientific sense, not the YouTube/climate sense), and atheist, I found it to be a valuable read. Recommended...
I think a lot of the material he addresses is pertinent to this thread and to the very recent discussion of the impotence of facts in changing minds. In general, as a hardcore rationalist, skeptic (in the scientific sense, not the YouTube/climate sense), and atheist, I found it to be a valuable read. Recommended...
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