Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[Breezy]

We Drive the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV News Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

Sounds like the Bolt has even less in common with the Gamma platform than I thought:

GM’s new electric-vehicle architecture is known simply as BEV II; it doesn’t have a Greek-letter name like the rest of the company’s platforms. Asked if it shares anything with the Gamma platform that underpins the Chevy Sonic, Tavel shrugs. “The liquid sound deadener,” he offers. The Bolt uses a MacPherson strut suspension in front and a torsion-beam arrangement at the rear. A handwritten sticker on the doorjamb suggests that this particular development car tips the scales at 3512 pounds—heavy for a car this small until you consider that hundreds of pounds of batteries cling to the underside of the floor.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Fast-charging optional?

We Drive the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

"Fast-charging capability will be optional using the SAE’s CCS standard"

Probably tied to having "Premium Interior" or something dumb like that. :facepalm:

I kind of expected that, esp. given it is optional on a lot of current EVs (which have far less range). Even for Model 3, I expect fast charging will be optional. It's hard to reach that price point without making some things optional.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like the Bolt has even less in common with the Gamma platform than I thought:

That suspension configuration is the same as the Gamma platform. Could it be that he is comparing to the current Gamma platform? The next gen Sonic doesn't come until around 2018. GM is only doing a face-lift for now.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/07...dly-full-of-new-models-engines/#ixzz3sn8eTocw

 

[JRP3]

I kind of expected that, esp. given it is optional on a lot of current EVs (which have far less range). Even for Model 3, I expect fast charging will be optional. It's hard to reach that price point without making some things optional.

Except that the actual hardware is cheap enough that Tesla includes it in all vehicles even if SC access isn't paid for. Obviously we don't know if they would do the same with the 3 but I expect it.

 

[dhanson865]

Gee, what company would ever do that (goes 300 miles and costs 50K) ;-) There has been zero indication that there will be multiple battery sizes. Nobody besides Tesla has ever offered that.

2016 Nissan Leaf has a trim with a 24 kWh pack and two trims with a 30 kWh pack.

 

[Trev Page]

This is not going to be a cheap car upfront. In the ICE world, 42k + destination gets you an Acura TLX V6 with Tech Package and SH-AWD system. Of course, the Bolt will be cheap as hell to operate/drive, while the TLX will eat many gallons of gasoline to run that SH-AWD.

Factor in the gas savings and it's actually a good deal. We pay way more for gas in Canada than the US so high mileage drivers will really benefit. I'm in that camp but I'm budgeting for Model 3. As long as it's too outlandish I'm putting my deposit down in March.

 

[Trev Page]

Except that the actual hardware is cheap enough that Tesla includes it in all vehicles even if SC access isn't paid for. Obviously we don't know if they would do the same with the 3 but I expect it.

I have a strong feeling Supercharger access will be included in the price of the car. Less friction and they can still earmark a small portion for paying for deployment and upkeep given the much bigger volume Model 3 represents.

Superchargers are Teslas advantage over everyone else. Keep it free and you have a much more compelling value. Compelling is Elon's favourite buzzword.

 

[Breezy]

That suspension configuration is the same as the Gamma platform. Could it be that he is comparing to the current Gamma platform? The next gen Sonic doesn't come until around 2018. GM is only doing a face-lift for now.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/07...dly-full-of-new-models-engines/#ixzz3sn8eTocw

Could be. If there's anything in common with the next-gen Gamma, it would probably be the suspension. Note that the larger, compact Delta platform also uses struts in the front and torsion beam in the rear.

 

[EVenthusiast]

I have a strong feeling Supercharger access will be included in the price of the car. Less friction and they can still earmark a small portion for paying for deployment and upkeep given the much bigger volume Model 3 represents.

Superchargers are Teslas advantage over everyone else. Keep it free and you have a much more compelling value. Compelling is Elon's favourite buzzword.

Many people don't need more than 200 miles range, and I bet a majority of those folks would rather save ~$2,000 and not have Supercharger access. So why give up that profit margin?

I'm sure the hardware will be there (there isn't much to it), so it can be purchased later, or enabled as part of the CPO process to increase value, just like they do now with the S 60.

 

[ecarfan]

Except that the actual hardware is cheap enough that Tesla includes it in all vehicles even if SC access isn't paid for. Obviously we don't know if they would do the same with the 3 but I expect it.

Tesla currently includes DC charging hardware in very S and X because all Teslas (even the base RWD S70) now come standard with Supercharging capability (it's not an option anymore like it used to be with the S60).
At this point we don't know if the base Model 3 will come with DC charging hardware as standard (I think it will) and if Supercharging will be standard (I think it will be optional).

 

[jgs]

Tesla currently includes DC charging hardware in very S and X because all Teslas (even the base RWD S70) now come standard with Supercharging capability (it's not an option anymore like it used to be with the S60).
At this point we don't know if the base Model 3 will come with DC charging hardware as standard (I think it will) and if Supercharging will be standard (I think it will be optional).

What hardware is even required for DC fast charging? Back when supercharging was optional on the S60, that was a software upgrade, basically just adding an entitlement. My casual understanding is that although L2 charging does require hardware in the car, for converting AC to DC, DCFC doesn't.

 

[dhanson865]

I have a strong feeling Supercharger access will be included in the price of the car. Less friction and they can still earmark a small portion for paying for deployment and upkeep given the much bigger volume Model 3 represents.

Superchargers are Teslas advantage over everyone else. Keep it free and you have a much more compelling value. Compelling is Elon's favourite buzzword.

Many people don't need more than 200 miles range, and I bet a majority of those folks would rather save ~$2,000 and not have Supercharger access. So why give up that profit margin?

I'm sure the hardware will be there (there isn't much to it), so it can be purchased later, or enabled as part of the CPO process to increase value, just like they do now with the S 60.

The Model S supercharging is unlimited for life and so is Model X.

But with the larger volume of Model 3 it would make sense to

A. move the super charger to a base option to avoid the "I payed $2000 I should be able to use it unlimited" response.
B. annouce that Model 3 has for life supercharging but with restrictions on frequency of charging that keep people from abusing the system.

I don't expect a drastic change but a more subtle one with more fine print.

But who knows they may not see A as an issue and do B without A.

 

[stopcrazypp]

What hardware is even required for DC fast charging? Back when supercharging was optional on the S60, that was a software upgrade, basically just adding an entitlement. My casual understanding is that although L2 charging does require hardware in the car, for converting AC to DC, DCFC doesn't.

DCFC requires a contactor to connect the pins on the charging cable directly to the battery rather than going through the onboard charger. It also requires high amperage cabling while AC doesn't.

For non-Tesla cars, for CHAdeMO (like the Leaf) it also uses a separate DC port that is blanked out if you don't option it (and also associated pin cabling not installed). For CCS (like the Bolt) it has two extra DC pins that are blanked out (and also associated pin cabling not installed).

Almost forgot to mention the above will also require separate control hardware (CHAdeMO will have a completely different set, CCS will have extra power line communication for the digital part of the standard).

However, for Tesla's socket, given the DC charging pins are shared with AC, the pins will still have to be there and there is no separate cabling (at least from the port onwards, although cable is beefier to handle DC). So the hardware price differential for not having DC is probably much less than for the other examples (which is likely why Tesla included the hardware on the 60).

 

[dsm363]

The fact DC charging isn't standard says a lot. They aren't serious about long distance travel and won't be deploying a decent network. They'll wait for it to happen.

I hope the Model 3 simply comes with a per use charge for Supercharger access. You'd be required to link a credit card and would be charged a certain amount when you plugged in. No need to swipe your credit card or anything.

 

[Bangor Bob]

Could be. If there's anything in common with the next-gen Gamma, it would probably be the suspension. Note that the larger, compact Delta platform also uses struts in the front and torsion beam in the rear.

Suspension, steering hardware, running gear, yeah. Common mounting points and shared subframes, things like that.

I should have specified "next-gen Sonic/Trax/Encore" up above. I probably did have it in there but edited the message several times before hitting post. "Platform" can be very fuzzy sometimes, especially in these days of CAD where you can slice and dice and iterate designs so easily.

 

[JRP3]

At this point we don't know if the base Model 3 will come with DC charging hardware as standard (I think it will) and if Supercharging will be standard (I think it will be optional).

I agree, though there may be a pay per use option as well.

 

[TexasEV]

What hardware is even required for DC fast charging? Back when supercharging was optional on the S60, that was a software upgrade, basically just adding an entitlement. My casual understanding is that although L2 charging does require hardware in the car, for converting AC to DC, DCFC doesn't.

Not exactly, there was both hardware and software required for the 60s. In fact the $2000 option was initially described as $1000 for the hardware and $1000 for the software. Then it was announced that the hardware would be included in all cars to protect their resale value, but the fee would be $2000 to activate it. (More likely the hardware was built into all the cars to standardize production.)

 

[electracity]

Sounds like the Bolt has even less in common with the Gamma platform than I thought:

I assumed it was built on the new Gamma platform too, but clearly that is not true. The battery in the floor is the big news. The Bolt has a large interior and probably good handling. It doesn't appear compromised in any way, except for the lack of a charging network. It might only be a realistic second car for a couple million north american households.

I don't love the Bolt styling, but I don't love the MX look either. The important thing is that neither car is a weirdmobile. The second row seat even folds flat in the Bolt.

Who should be worried about the Bolt are the EV people at Nissan and BMW.

 

[WarpedOne]

It might only be a realistic second car

== compromised
It doesn't matter if I do 99% under 200.
It is about that 1% that I cannot do with this car.

Next!

 

[jgs]

DCFC requires a contactor to connect the pins on the charging cable directly to the battery rather than going through the onboard charger. It also requires high amperage cabling while AC doesn't.

For non-Tesla cars, for CHAdeMO (like the Leaf) it also uses a separate DC port that is blanked out if you don't option it (and also associated pin cabling not installed). For CCS (like the Bolt) it has two extra DC pins that are blanked out (and also associated pin cabling not installed).

Almost forgot to mention the above will also require separate control hardware (CHAdeMO will have a completely different set, CCS will have extra power line communication for the digital part of the standard).

However, for Tesla's socket, given the DC charging pins are shared with AC, the pins will still have to be there and there is no separate cabling (at least from the port onwards, although cable is beefier to handle DC). So the hardware price differential for not having DC is probably much less than for the other examples (which is likely why Tesla included the hardware on the 60).

Thanks. What you describe sounds to me like well under a hundred bucks worth of parts (this is of course based on my zero years of auto industry experience . If that guess is right, it would seem shortsighted for GM not to put the hardware in all the cars and then charge a fee to enable it, following the S60 model. If they don't build it in, or at least make it easy for a dealer to add, I would think they're leaving money on the table.

 

[BriansTesla]

I hope the Model 3 simply comes with a per use charge for Supercharger access. You'd be required to link a credit card and would be charged a certain amount when you plugged in. No need to swipe your credit card or anything.

I like this idea. Something like a $4.50 fee per each use.