Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[scaesare]

Throwaway accounts on reddit.....sounds completely legit.

It's funny that if you replace "Cruise" and "Kyle" with "Tesla" and "Elon", it would read just fine.

Put what stock in it you will. Anonymous insider info can be suspect, or can be very telling.

Interestingly insiders here used anon accounts to report Model X production issues (amongst other things), that turned out to be highly accurate.

Also of note another poster on reddit chimed in suggesting that internal assessment was accurate.

 

[McRat]

Put what stock in it you will. Anonymous insider info can be suspect, or can be very telling.

Interestingly insiders here used anon accounts to report Model X production issues (amongst other things), that turned out to be highly accurate.

Also of note another poster on reddit chimed in suggesting that internal assessment was accurate.

I personally do not put a lot of faith in soap opera reporting in the auto industry.

I watch what the companies deliver, or can at least demonstrate to an impartial press.

Most MFRs are doing the Smoke and Mirrors routine, or exaggerate what their products do.

The problem with GM as a stock broker would envision a problem, is that if GM says there is 16 oz of content in their pound of bread, you will get at least a pound of bread on your table. This is not a good way to pump and dump stocks. You say there is 2lb of bread, then later state that is a future goal. Yes VW/BMW/Audi, I'm talking about you.

 

[bro1999]

Put what stock in it you will. Anonymous insider info can be suspect, or can be very telling.

Interestingly insiders here used anon accounts to report Model X production issues (amongst other things), that turned out to be highly accurate.

Also of note another poster on reddit chimed in suggesting that internal assessment was accurate.

There were also reports of major supplier issues with Model 3 parts that turned out to be greatly exaggerated, if not completely false.

If GM is known for anything (besides killing the EV1...mentioning that up front before someone on here jumps on that gimme), it's for being conservative...perhaps even too conservative at times. Look at Super Cruise. That was supposed to be introduced last year, but GM delayed deployment for a whole year.

I am highly dubious of anonymous claims on Reddit from supposed Cruise employees stating that Cruise and Kyle are pulling one over on Mary and GM about their autonomous driving tech. Pretty sure the CEO of Cruise would not be making such claims and invoking GM's name unless GM brass gave their stamp of approval beforehand.

 

[miimura]

Pretty sure the CEO of Cruise would not be making such claims and invoking GM's name unless GM brass gave their stamp of approval beforehand.

Just because he had permission, doesn't necessarily make it any more true.

 

[McRat]

The assumption that Mary Barra is not a brilliant engineer is not based on performance.

Rue the day you try to con a good engineer with smoke and mirrors. It's a great way to collect your last check.

 

[palmer_md]

The assumption that Mary Barra is not a brilliant engineer is not based on performance.

Rue the day you try to con a good engineer with smoke and mirrors. It's a great way to collect your last check.

it was not with Mary Barra, but Envia Systems comes to mind.

 

[McRat]

it was not with Mary Barra, but Envia Systems comes to mind.

GM has a venture capital arm called General Motors Investment Management.
Out of the $17 million GMIM acquired for Envia, $7 million was from GM. If you look below, you will see how big of a gamble GM took on Envia:

General Motors Investment Management | crunchbase

At the time, the Volt was already in production and GM was buying cells from A123 and LG Chem, mostly the latter. GM was being run by a suit with no automotive experience and a naval engineering degree from Annapolis. But he spent his career in the financial end of business, not in manufacturing or design or electronics or cars or factories, etc. If somebody put 2 nails in a potato and ran a calculator with it, he would not know it wasn't Silver-Oxide technology.

 

[diamond.g]

For the self driving Bolts, clearly they still need humans to interact with them as no one else seems to be working on automatic charging solutions (of course it doesn’t appear Tesla is installing anything either). So I wonder how that s handled, is there some sort of home base they drive back to to charge? Do they send a signal to Cruise to meet at a charging station?

 

[Jeff N]

For the self driving Bolts, clearly they still need humans to interact with them as no one else seems to be working on automatic charging solutions (of course it doesn’t appear Tesla is installing anything either). So I wonder how that s handled, is there some sort of home base they drive back to to charge? Do they send a signal to Cruise to meet at a charging station?

Wireless ~7 kW charging spaces scattered around town would be one obvious solution where cars could park themselves during slow periods of the day while waiting for customers. Since they can track the SOC in members of the fleet they can service customer calls using an algorithm to efficiently balance daily vehicle mileage.

For certain destination routes that tend to crank up route distances like trips to or from the airport they could have a nearby lot with a service employee who manually plugs cars into DC fast chargers and does basic vehicle cleanup -- sort of like the ground crew for a jetliner between flights....

 

[McRat]

Short loop in-flight refueling:

A class of AV is a 'tanker'. These have 2000lb+ batteries and DCFC charge controllers.
They refuel themselves with dedicated 350kW nose connection terminals.

When an EV puts out a charge request, the tankers in the area decide which can service it best.
The tanker enters the freeway at 55mph ahead of the EV. The EV connects to the tanker. 15 minutes later, the EV disconnects and drives way. The tanker parks off the highway somewhere on it's loop route until the central controller determines it is needed again, or should be recharged again.

They will be critical for EV-only heavy trucks or interstate passenger cars who do not desire to be kept waiting. They will require less capital investment in areas where land is expense, and can easily change with the times to adapt to changing traffic patterns and # of EVs. And become faster than ICE refueling.

 

[WannabeOwner]

They will be critical for EV-only heavy trucks or interstate passenger cars who do not desire to be kept waitin

Perhaps the talk of road surfaces that recharge the cars is not the hogwash I thought it was. I don't know how fast induction could be, but if a 15 minute charge will do then 15 miles of highway needs to be converted to give an additional, say, 100 miles of range. So that 15 miles of charging-highway would be needed every 100 miles (rather than all the way, as I had pondered, which would clearly be ridiculously expensive infrastructure)

 

[Trips]

Why is Chevy not giving allotments to dealers that want them? This weekend I was speaking with a manager in Nebraska and he said that he can't get any Bolts from Chevy. He was trying to get a truckload from a California dealership that has to many. He can sell them at retail where California can't even sell them at a discount. He seemed really excited about them but did not know about the seat and glare issues.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

For the self driving Bolts, clearly they still need humans to interact with them as no one else seems to be working on automatic charging solutions (of course it doesn’t appear Tesla is installing anything either). So I wonder how that s handled, is there some sort of home base they drive back to to charge? Do they send a signal to Cruise to meet at a charging station?

Really, who cares. Fleets would need people to clean, detail and maintain the cars. Plug/unplug would be a tiny amount of minimum wage time.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Wireless ~7 kW charging spaces scattered around town would be one obvious solution where cars could park themselves during slow periods of the day while waiting for customers. Since they can track the SOC in members of the fleet they can service customer calls using an algorithm to efficiently balance daily vehicle mileage.

For certain destination routes that tend to crank up route distances like trips to or from the airport they could have a nearby lot with a service employee who manually plugs cars into DC fast chargers and does basic vehicle cleanup -- sort of like the ground crew for a jetliner between flights....

1min x $15/hour = $0.25/hour.

Why bother with all of that stuff when a long-range BEV would be driving around for hours between charges and you could have someone on the minimum wage plugging/unplugging and tidying?

 

[Jeff N]

1min x $15/hour = $0.25/hour.

Why bother with all of that stuff when a long-range BEV would be driving around for hours between charges and you could have someone on the minimum wage plugging/unplugging and tidying?

Actually, I think we are in agreement. I didn't mean to imply that all of the autonomous Bolt Uber/Lyft cars would be parked at wireless charging stalls just that some of them could do that when they would be otherwise "idling" during slow periods of the day. An algorithm can determine which cars to dispatch and which to idly charge in order to best maintain fleet readiness for busier times of the day.

And, yes, I was assuming the "valet" guy at the location near the airport who might be cleaning and manually fast charging some cars would likely be paid near minimum wage.

I imagine that most of the fleet would need neither wireless charging or airport fast charging and cleaning every day. Instead, cars would be scheduled to circulate through the airport location on a regular basis for cleaning or when a few cars need fast charging due to taking customers on a few longer than usual routes during the day (including a trip to the airport).

 

[Jeff N]

The Bolt's battery pack,which has an extra stack of battery modules under the rear seats:

The Bolt is most definitely not a skateboard design. It is closer to the Leaf in design (including the extra layer of cells under the rear seats)....

I knew someone will try to get on the case about the small section in the front of the S pack that is stacked, making the pack not completely flat. The main difference is that one is not in the passenger section (deliberately). The rear seat section in the Bolt may not seem to intrude on passenger space, however it forces you into a configuration with the rear seat put in that section in order to achieve that....

I am not seeing how the Bolt meets any definition of skateboard design (where the basic principle and goal is to enable different body types with the same battery/drivetrain).

Now that Tesla has published some new illustrations I guess we can all agree now that their new Model 3 battery pack is (like the Bolt) not really a skateboard design?

 

[McRat]

1min x $15/hour = $0.25/hour.

Why bother with all of that stuff when a long-range BEV would be driving around for hours between charges and you could have someone on the minimum wage plugging/unplugging and tidying?

A $15/hr employee costs roughly $45 to produce 1 hr of work. It's about 3:1. Breaks, taxes, vacation, training, mgmt, insurance, etc, all add up.

 

[miimura]

The Bolt's battery pack,which has an extra stack of battery modules under the rear seats:

Now that Tesla has published some new illustrations I guess we can all agree now that their new Model 3 battery pack is (like the Bolt) not really a skateboard design?

The hump on the Model 3 battery pack is not more batteries. They have integrated all the power electronics - on-board charger, DC-DC converter, supercharger switching, etc. all into that hump. This represents a huge cost reduction over the way these systems are implemented on the Model S.

Also, in case you didn't hear, there is no battery heater on the Model 3. They have figured out a way to pass current through the motor without generating torque and they harvest the heat from the inverter to heat the battery while stationary. Ingenious.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Bolt's battery pack,which has an extra stack of battery modules under the rear seats:

View attachment 249180



Now that Tesla has published some new illustrations I guess we can all agree now that their new Model 3 battery pack is (like the Bolt) not really a skateboard design?

View attachment 249179

Technically the Model 3 is not a skateboard anymore because that configuration locks you into one cabin configuration (rear seats have to be in that exact spot). And I believe the Model 3 pack is also no longer swappable either (no confirmation yet).

However, as noted by @miimura, the hump has the onboard charger (similar to how earlier Model S had it, except that had it in a separate enclosure). This is different from the Leaf and Bolt designs (which had battery cells in there). So that allows more flexibility. If that hump can be unbolted from the main pack (or top plate changed) then that allows them to shift the exact location of it without making any changes to the battery section.

 

[Jeff N]

Also, in case you didn't hear, there is no battery heater on the Model 3. They have figured out a way to pass current through the motor without generating torque and they harvest the heat from the inverter to heat the battery while stationary. Ingenious.

I definitely want to learn more about that. It seems novel since I've never heard about that being done before. I don't really understand how it works.

And I believe the Model 3 pack is also no longer swappable either (no confirmation yet).

That's my impression as well although I've just seen people making various statements about it and haven't read anything definitive from Tesla.

If that hump can be unbolted from the main pack (or top plate changed) then that allows them to shift the exact location of it without making any changes to the battery

Sure, but we don't know exactly how that is constructed and attached yet and how it might or might not have tightly integrated cooling and electrical connections to the main pack. If it's tightly integrated (as I expect) and not just bolted on as an afterthought then it might as well be more battery cells --either way it's a hump and it sticks up under the rear seats.