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Been browsing a while, but now signed up. This my first post. Quick question for the community. Sorry if it is dumb/been asked and answered 100 times already.
Can you, in fact, safely charge a roadster from a regular 13A socket in Hong Kong? Tesla are saying (to me anyway) this is not possible for a Model S (or it is, but the plug will melt within 6 months). But what about for a roadster?
Appreciate the accumulated wisdom of the forum.
Thanks in advance.
Can you, in fact, safely charge a roadster from a regular 13A socket in Hong Kong? Tesla are saying (to me anyway) this is not possible for a Model S (or it is, but the plug will melt within 6 months). But what about for a roadster?
Appreciate the accumulated wisdom of the forum.
Thanks in advance.
My opinion is that it is generally unsafe with a regular household socket, and generally safe with a 13A BS1343 socket installed specifically for EV charging (following EMSD guidelines). The issue is that there is no physical / visual difference between the two cases (the socket is the same, but what is behind it may be very different), so Tesla will not be providing any support for these sockets at launch.
They did provide a BS1343 mobile charger with the roadster, and most (if not all) roadster owners have been using those safely in HK for the past three-to-four years.
In my opinion, if you charge at 10A, on these sockets, all concerns disappear. That seems to be what other manufacturers (BMW, Nissan, etc) do.
markwj: thank you. I certainly take great heed of your opinion. Very helpful. A follow up question if I may, probably equally as dim as the first - how do you use a BS1343 mobile charger? Can I plug that in at home, at either the 13A plug perhaps dialed down to 10A (or, if not, then a 20A plug I also seem to have outside). Or is it for use in a public charger.
Also, can you charge a roadster at the usual public charging spots in various public car parks in HK (like the ones in IFC) or, like the Model S, are there only very few compatible chargers in public car parks.
Thanks again.
Also, can you charge a roadster at the usual public charging spots in various public car parks in HK (like the ones in IFC) or, like the Model S, are there only very few compatible chargers in public car parks.
Thanks again.
waidy
Member
markwj, is there a physical appearance different between the two, in another word, when looking at it would one tell the difference?
It can be used on any plug it will fit into. One end is a standard HK/UK 3 square pin plug (technically called BS1343 standard - just like in your kettle/tv/whatever). The other end is a connector that plugs into the car. In the cable is a small box of electronics that simply tells the car how much current it can draw. The maximum current limit can also be set in the car but cannot be larger than the limit 'advertised' by the electronics in the cable.
To use it, you plug in both ends (one to wall socket, one to car), and the car starts the charge.
For my roadster, I can use the same BS1343 mobile connector at home or at a public charging station.
The 'charger' is actually in the car. That is the (large) electronics that converts AC power from the wall to DC power in the car's batteries. The things you think of as 'chargers' with cables are really very simple - they just provide the AC power unchanged, plus a signal wire (called the 'pilot') that tells the car what is connected and what is the maximum current the car should use. They don't do any charging or conversion. (The exception is DC fast charging, CHAdeMO or Supercharging, but that is a separate topic).
Tesla also sells a UMC (Universal Mobile Charger) in some markets that have a set of adaptors that connect to a variety of sockets. That is very useful for Europe and USA where they have a large number of different types of socket. That UMC was available for the roadster in HK, but not for the Model S.
Yes, the roadster can use any of the 1,000+ BS1343 public charging sockets just fine.
The issue is not with the car. The issue is the availability of a connection cable.
For the roadster, the car had a proprietary Tesla connector. So, we were limited to the charging solutions that Tesla provided. A few enterprising hobbyists have engineered their own solutions, but that is not trivial as parts for the connectors were hard to obtain.
For the Tesla Model S, the cars in HK use a European standard connector (a compatible extension to type 2 Mennekes). At launch, Tesla will be supplying a 10A-40A wall mounted connector suitable for this. But, no other offering from Tesla at launch. Tesla also commit to offering a higher-power version (up to 80A) later in 2014. But, as the car connector is standard, owners can source other charging solutions that Tesla won't (currently) provide. For example, there are at least 3 other compatible BS1343 to Mennekes type 2 mobile cables that people have found.
Final comment on the BS1343 problem itself. The socket itself is not really designed for a EV charging. It is designed for simple household / office use. If you plug in a light, it may draw 100watts of power (0.5A at 220V) for several hours. A fan heater perhaps 1,000watts (4A). A kettle perhaps 1,500watts (7A) for just a few minutes. An EV will draw 2,860watts (13A) for the whole night long! As you can see, the load is significantly greater for the EV charging and it is continuous (many hours, non-stop). If the wiring behind the socket is not good, or there are other loads on the same wiring circuit, the wires may get overloaded, overheated, and a fire results.
The HK government department responsible for electrical standards (EMSE) has addressed this with a standard for how to wire a BS1343 socket for EV charging. The cable is rated for 16A, it is dedicated for just EV charging (nothing else on the same circuit), and the circuit breaker is also rated for 16A. They consider it safe for EV charging at up to 13A.
Tesla's problem is that there is no way for an end-user to tell the difference between a BS1343 socket wired for household/workplace use and one wired for EV charging according to EMSE standards. Tesla is also concerned that prolonged (many years) high-volume use of these BS1343 sockets has been shown to visibly damage the socket (cracking, damage to contacts, etc).
The 10A-40A connector Tesla provides is a fantastic solution to home / office charging. The problem is that they currently have no solution for mobile charging.
Just FYI, in the UK there is an official label specified for BS1363 sockets that have been installed in accordance with the Code of Practice for EV Charging Equipment Installation. The label is black text on a yellow rectangle reading "Electric Vehicle Connecting Point".
The concern here is not primarily with the current-carrying capability of the wiring (which in UK practice at least should be adequate anyhow), but with earthing arrangements. Sockets that may be used for charging an EV outdoors (and this applies to dedicated EVSE also) need a separate earth rod rather than having their earth pin connected to the house earth if the house earthing is TN-C-S (also known as PME, very common here). The issue is to protect you in the case where the incoming supply to the building is faulty and has an open-circuit neutral: if wired straightforwardly, the whole car would become live in the event of such a fault.
I'm not sure how similar Hong Kong practice is to the UK ("home of the BS1363") - and in particular if PME is common.
Hong Kong EMSD requirements are here:
http://www.emsd.gov.hk/emsd/e_download/pps/pub/Charging_Facilities_Electric_Vehicles.pdf
I don't see anything specific to earthing arrangements for mode 1.
When the electrician installed my HPC, a few years ago, he wasn't happy with the earthing arrangements of metal pipes in my garage and had a field day with yellow/green wire the day before the electrical inspection.
I suspect that Tesla's concerns are that if they were to offer such an adaptor, (a) it -could- be used on a non-EMSD standard socket, (b) they have seen cracked and melted BS1363 sockets at public charging stations, (c) they would get blamed for any fires, and (d) trying to by with two or three hours 13A charging at a shopping centers does not make for a good ownership experience.
waidy
Member
markwj, thanks for the link. So.. if I make a portable EVSE with BS1363 plug that has a fuse built in, I will be all set. If I run into a bad socket, it will just brow the fuse and the charging will stop. Comments?
My understanding is that the fused BS plugs are good for low current appliances only. For example, you have a 4A kettle that has a very thin cord. Putting a 5a fuse in the plug will prevent problems that a 16A ring circuit breaker would not. For example, the fuse would blow if there were a short in the line cord between the appliance and the plug. So, for EV charging on a dedicated outlet, a fused plug doesn't really add anything because the fuse and circuit breaker would be nearly the same value. In addition, the fuse in the plug does not do anything to improve the safety of the wiring behind the socket.
The best portable EVSE I've seen for BS1363 is the Mennekes adjustable one because it has thermal sensors in the plug and the handle. However, I have no idea how to buy it outside the EU.
The best portable EVSE I've seen for BS1363 is the Mennekes adjustable one because it has thermal sensors in the plug and the handle. However, I have no idea how to buy it outside the EU.
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A fuse is really for overload (too much current).
The issue is really the wiring and connectors. When electricity flows through a wire / across a connector there is resistance, and that resistance is expressed as heat. The higher the power, the more heat. Thicker/better wires reduce resistance. A bar-style heater is the ultimate example of this - the wires are designed to have so much resistance that they get so hot they glow red and heat the room. That is a really simplistic, general, explanation.
The concern is that if high currents are drawn through wiring / connectors that are not up to the task, then the wiring / connectors will heat up too much. Damage to connectors (where two metal parts join, like a plug and socket) can also lead to arcing. If this load is continuous, for many hours, then you have a fire risk.
The 'smart' mobile EVSE have temperature sensors and will stop the charge / reduce current if they detect the socket / plug heating up. But, that doesn't really help for the wiring behind the socket. Tesla also tried this with their new US UMC and supposedly it was not effective (or not as effective as a redesign of the UMC connector itself). Another way is for the car to monitor available voltage during the charge, and react appropriately if fluctuations are found (resistance, current and voltage are related).
To be precise, Tesla in the US recently experimented with putting in a thermal fuse (temperature dependent) into their high powered adapter (40A) for their US UMC, but found that it didn't help much. So they redesigned their 40A adapter with higher temperature plastics and better welds (there were many reports in the field of Tesla's adapter melting) AS WELL AS new software in the car that will reduce charging current if it detects suspicious voltage changes. Presumably such software would have to be tuned and tested in each country.
I don't blame Tesla for not selling/delivering a portable EVSE. The problem is that both the UK and HK have these 13A sockets that are not dedicated. In the US, all high powered receptacles cannot be shared with other receptacles. The only receptacles that can be shared on a circuit are the low power, 120V, 15A or 20A receptacles (max. 2400 watts). But as others have pointed out, you can buy third party EVSEs that do support the 13A receptacles and/or you can make adapters for other portable EVSEs.
Mennekes make connectors in the UK, but do they also make a charger adapter which would enable 13A BS1363 charging?
if it even has a built in thermal control (sensor inside the plug pegs?), and maybe also current vs voltage monitoring, then it might be worth looking at for a "direct import"
This is the unit that has been discussed in the past. It only delivers up to 10A to the car, but it does have thermal sensor in the plug and the Type-2 handle. The images below are from their product PDF that was posted to this forum previously.
This is the agent that is listed for Hong Kong on the Mennekes web site. I think organizing a "group buy" would motivate them to import some.
Supermoon Limited
11/F, Yan Hing Ctr. 9-13 Wong Chuk Yeung Street
Fo Tan, New Territories
Hong Kong
Phone: 00852 2691 9166
Fax: 00852 2693 2927
enquiry(at)supermoon.hk
www.supermoon.hk
I've just looked at the Supermoon web site and they are distributors for Schneider Electric, Eaton, and ABB, all of which manufacture EVSE and DCFC products.
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