Changes to Supercharging?

[gangzoom]

Some confident government leadership pointing the ship in the right direction would have been nice ...

Personally I would say put a £100+ additional tax on air fares, another £100 tax on ALL cars, start building cycle infrastructure rather than roads, change all 30mph zone to 20mph and your reduce carbon emissions than supporting the transition to EVs.

One thing is clear, EVs will never become mass market if Tesla essentially has to single handily build out the charging infrastructure, one bad tweet from the main man and it'll come crashing down faster than a Conservative PM.

We live an learn, I like my EV, but I like my eBike far more. I've come to the conclusion cars aren't the solution to anything, so honestly couldn't really careless about which way government policy goes, its the cheapest option I will take.

Had we bought a diesel SQ7 instead of X in 2016, the SQ7 would be worth more on the residual value side, it's only the cheaper running costs keeping the X in the game. Add in VAT for domestic charging and it'll be game over for me interms of EV ownership.

 

[GRiLLA]

These kind of figures show just how fragile EV adoption/wider engagement is. If charging companies cannot make money, who is going to invest in charging infrastructure.

I'm pretty uncertain if our next car purchase will be another EV. If our X didn't have free for life surcharging I really wouldn't be that bothered by replacing it with something like the a RX.

EV adventure has been a fun one for me, but all good things end at some point.

But it is making about 10% operating profit, ignore the rest as that's just financial jiggery to exploit people's willingness to provide debt to the company. Companies don't want annual reports that show large amount of profit as corporation tax would be due.

 

[FastLaneJB]

This is a huge transition. In fact that's an understatement. The changes are not necessarily going to flow from the short-term profit making enterprises of every day commerce. If we leave it to "the market" many of the changes won't come until much later in the game ... oh, they'll come alright, but it will need pandemic levels of deaths through climate chaos and wars for the penny to drop! Meantime if the familiar status quo is cheaper and more convenient then who gives a damn? Some confident government leadership pointing the ship in the right direction would have been nice ...

Pandemic level deaths or war level deaths is nothing in the scheme of what we might be facing if we screw this up, which knowing mankind we likely will.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Personally I would say put a £100+ additional tax on air fares, another £100 tax on ALL cars, start building cycle infrastructure rather than roads, change all 30mph zone to 20mph and your reduce carbon emissions than supporting the transition to EVs.

We live an learn, I like my EV, but I like my eBike far more. I've come to the conclusion cars aren't the solution to anything, so honestly couldn't really careless about which way government policy goes, its the cheapest option I will take.

I'd rather bring on the apocalypse than have the country turn into Amsterdam.

There's a lot of ways we can fix climate change, I'm not even sure moving to EV cars are really going to move through needle all that much in the scheme of things.

The whole commuting into office buildings to protect the value of commercial property doesn't help. That must be adding a large amount of completely unnecessary emissions. Could reduce the amount of cars on the road by a good amount.

How about business trip flights for meetings that could be done remotely. The whole have to turn up, have a meal to get business done just needs to accept its hugely damaging to the environment.

Of course nothing much really changes, we won't fix the problem until the problem really rears it's head and there's no choice but to face it.

 

[ringi]

If charging companies cannot make money, who is going to invest in charging infrastructure.

Charging companies are often taking site leases on for 20 years, but the full cost of installing the chargers (including grid connections and planning permission) are depreciated over the expected life of the charge. It reasonable to asusume replacement charger will cost a lot less and that usage (kwh of power sold) will increase.

They also have the issue that design/legal costs of sites that don't go ahead are charged against the accounts in the year the money is spent.

 

[ringi]

Companies don't want annual reports that show large amount of profit as corporation tax would be due.

That change recently as practically all capital spending other then land can now be offset against profit (in the year of spending) when calculating corporation tax.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

Personally I would say put a £100+ additional tax on air fares, another £100 tax on ALL cars, start building cycle infrastructure rather than roads, change all 30mph zone to 20mph and your reduce carbon emissions than supporting the transition to EVs.

Enforcing the 70mph limit on motorways would also go a long way towards reducing both carbon emissions and air pollution, as would banning cars and diesel trains from idling when stationary. Turning off the start/stop functionality in an ICE car should result in an automatic increase to the VED.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Enforcing the 70mph limit on motorways would also go a long way towards reducing both carbon emissions and air pollution, as would banning cars and diesel trains from idling when stationary. Turning off the start/stop functionality in an ICE car should result in an automatic increase to the VED.

Do many people in the UK turn the auto start/stop off? I mean I know US folks complain about it always but not really seen that with UK folks. The whole not smooth pulling away, I've never really had an issue with it. The one I do understand for US folks in hot climates is the AC goes off and I know they can heat up really fast without it, not a problem really in UK in our climate.

They do enforce the 70mph limit as best they can. What more enforcement do you think they can really do? There's already cameras everywhere.

 

[KennethS]

Turning off the start/stop functionality in an ICE car should result in an automatic increase to the VED.

OT but on our son's VW Polo the implementation is quite poor. It shuts down the engine as you are nearly stopped but still moving. This means a loss of the power steering and brakes which, if you are stopping other than in a straight line can be unnerving. I have complained to VW and told it is working as designed and to shut the feature off! Scanning the VW forums seems to confirm his car is not unique.

 

[gangzoom]

Of course nothing much really changes, we won't fix the problem until the problem really rears it's head and there's no choice but to face it.

......and yet we still pretend wasting effort on things like EVs has any benefit on emissions reduction. Governments around the world really need to start doing some meaningful action, banning all non essential air travel would be a start, but how many of us would vote for that, despite all the signs of what's coming in our life time.

Gulf flooding: Dubai airport chaos as UAE and Oman reel from deadly storms

Heavy rain batters the UAE and Oman, causing flash floods that have killed 20 people since Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[FastLaneJB]

......and yet we still pretend wasting effort on things like EVs has any benefit on emissions reduction. Governments around the world really need to start doing some meaningful action, banning all non essential air travel would be a start, but how many of us would vote for that, despite all the signs of what's coming in our life time.

Gulf flooding: Dubai airport chaos as UAE and Oman reel from deadly storms

Heavy rain batters the UAE and Oman, causing flash floods that have killed 20 people since Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think the gulf flooding to be fair was they dabble with cloud seeding and seems that might have backfired on them.

I think in general EV’s are a nice idea compared to petrol but as you say it doesn’t really move the needle. I think it’s almost like a smoke and mirrors to make the general population think it’s being worked on while they do sod all on the things that would make a difference.

In my opinion there’s a few key issues with society:

1. We always want new things. We don’t buy a new phone normally or even car because we absolutely have to change it, we do it because we like new shiny things. We also have to keep buying new things because large parts of the economy and our jobs depend on it.
2. We have this constant view that economies must keep growing which normally means we need population growth to stick more people into jobs. Maybe AI will change this a bit but constant population growth is kind of required to keep the wheels turning the way it does. We cannot accept we have enough money, always need more.
3. We kind of want to fix the planet but not if it means impacting our way of life or the money we make.

Be some others but feel like it mostly boils down to those issues. As you say take air travel, it’s cheaper to fly off to Spain and have a holiday there than it is in the UK. Also nicer weather so most will do that. Try to take that away nice things from folks and you’ll have big backlash and lose the next election.

Frankly while an absolutely horrible thought but if climate change wipes out half of the population on this planet, it would probably also fix many of the issues we have:

1. Climate emissions drop hugely
2. Might be enough food and water to go around even after we’ve made parts of the planet uninhabitable
3. The government wouldn’t have to promise to build more housing in the UK We might actually have enough.

So yeah it’ll be a slow burn and won’t live to see it all but nature will cull our population and reset our numbers I think. We are both smart enough to see this coming and also too stupid to do anything to stop it.

 

[GRiLLA]

I think you are unwarranted in talking down the contribution of road users to CO2, it's by far the largest single contributor to the UK s emissions. Domestic transport is the largest contributor

and within that road is by far the largest element

I would agree there are options could be preferrable than replacing ICE cars with EV cars, public transport, bikes, just reducing the number of journeys, but they are harder to achieve.

International aviation is significant, uk uses about 40MtCO2e of aviation fuel, but as the only option at the moment is abstinence I doubt we can do much more than a small reduction by targeting the biggest users.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.g...enhouse-gas-emissions-statistical-release.pdf

 

[FastLaneJB]

I think you are unwarranted in talking down the contribution of road users to CO2, it's by far the largest single contributor to the UK s emissions. Domestic transport is the largest contributor

View attachment 1039412


and within that road is by far the largest element
View attachment 1039411
I would agree there are options could be preferrable than replacing ICE cars with EV cars, public transport, bikes, just reducing the number of journeys, but they are harder to achieve.

International aviation is significant, uk uses about 40MtCO2e of aviation fuel, but as the only option at the moment is abstinence I doubt we can do much more than a small reduction by targeting the biggest users.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.g...enhouse-gas-emissions-statistical-release.pdf

It's a complex topic for sure. Around half of those transport emissions are commercial vehicles which are much harder to go EV and mostly are all diesel.

I mean if we want to talk about UK emissions then seeing as pretty much no EV's are made here, the CO2 to create one and then ship it all the way from China (Tesla forum) is a Chinese CO2 emission even if the car is used here? So does the UK then basically get zero emissions from that vehicle as electricity production is tracked separately? It would be a nice way to game our stats but doesn't actually help the planet which is the real goal.

Emissions to make an EV are higher still so you need a reasonable amount of mileage before it matters. Many say better to not buy an EV but continue to use a working ICE until it dies. Also how long will an EV last vs an ICE? It's all down to the battery and while they might last longer, will be want to keep them longer? Especially as technology plays a bigger part with them. For instance maybe it drives fine but it's only got 4G and that network is then switched off in the future. On a Tesla that means a lot of functionality just dies, maybe would probably just drop it off the white cliffs of Dover and order a new one.

Honestly if we stopped buying new stuff the planet would be fine. We'd all just be unemployed and society would fall

 

[boombap]

Well there we go, changes are live.

UK subscription price dropped to £8.99 per month for non-Tesla users, with same rates per kWh as Tesla owners and crucially price per kWh looks to have dropped to 35p off peak near me.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

to have dropped to 35p off peak near me.

But largely pointless if you have to pay £5 to access Supercharger sites, which is where things are trending thanks to their policy of putting them in hotel car parks.

 

[boombap]

But largely pointless if you have to pay £5 to access Supercharger sites, which is where things are trending thanks to their policy of putting them in hotel car parks.

the ones near me are free parking, or at least a free period if you get the ticket validated.
Sure it’d be nice if it was all free, but that’s the UK for you.

 

[GRiLLA]

It's a complex topic for sure. Around half of those transport emissions are commercial vehicles which are much harder to go EV and mostly are all diesel.

I mean if we want to talk about UK emissions then seeing as pretty much no EV's are made here, the CO2 to create one and then ship it all the way from China (Tesla forum) is a Chinese CO2 emission even if the car is used here? So does the UK then basically get zero emissions from that vehicle as electricity production is tracked separately? It would be a nice way to game our stats but doesn't actually help the planet which is the real goal.

Emissions to make an EV are higher still so you need a reasonable amount of mileage before it matters. Many say better to not buy an EV but continue to use a working ICE until it dies. Also how long will an EV last vs an ICE? It's all down to the battery and while they might last longer, will be want to keep them longer? Especially as technology plays a bigger part with them. For instance maybe it drives fine but it's only got 4G and that network is then switched off in the future. On a Tesla that means a lot of functionality just dies, maybe would probably just drop it off the white cliffs of Dover and order a new one.

Honestly if we stopped buying new stuff the planet would be fine. We'd all just be unemployed and society would fall

Lets use real numbers

So of road users 57% comes from cars. Of the rest I would say there is clear evidence that busses and vans are already converting to electric is significant numbers. HGVs represent 21% of UK emissions, and while I expect can be addressed but not for some time. So 79% of the road transport figure is ready to convert to electric.

There are very many studies the lifetime carbon impact of EVs vs ICE, take your pick, this is a fairly balanced one https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Global-LCA-passenger-cars-FS-EN-jul2021.pdf. The 'cost of manufacture' premium of batteries is tiny compared to the fuel usage of a petrol car, overall the lifetime emissions are 1/3 of ICE, and that's going to decrease as the grid gets cleaner. As here in the UK we already have a cleaner grid than the EU average it's likely our figures would be even better. I don't really see how cars being shipped from China is a factor, plenty of ICE cars come from China, Korea and Japan, and plenty of EVs are made in Europe. My wife's Leaf just came down the A1 from Sunderland. I do find that many people don't intuitively realise just how much fuel goes through an ICE engine, over it's lifetime a 50mpg petrol car is likely to burn more than 10x it's weight in fuel.

No one is scrapping existing ICE cars because they aren't electric, they just get sold on down the chain. They still live out their life until they are uneconomic to repair. Actually there is a small argument that after about 7 years on average it would have been better to scrap them, and that's probably shorter for less efficient models, but it's too long of a prediction to be worth considering.

Source: Transport and environment statistics 2022

 

[mdunc]

I think the gulf flooding to be fair was they dabble with cloud seeding and seems that might have backfired on them.

I think in general EV’s are a nice idea compared to petrol but as you say it doesn’t really move the needle. I think it’s almost like a smoke and mirrors to make the general population think it’s being worked on while they do sod all on the things that would make a difference.

In my opinion there’s a few key issues with society:

1. We always want new things. We don’t buy a new phone normally or even car because we absolutely have to change it, we do it because we like new shiny things. We also have to keep buying new things because large parts of the economy and our jobs depend on it.
2. We have this constant view that economies must keep growing which normally means we need population growth to stick more people into jobs. Maybe AI will change this a bit but constant population growth is kind of required to keep the wheels turning the way it does. We cannot accept we have enough money, always need more.
3. We kind of want to fix the planet but not if it means impacting our way of life or the money we make.

Be some others but feel like it mostly boils down to those issues. As you say take air travel, it’s cheaper to fly off to Spain and have a holiday there than it is in the UK. Also nicer weather so most will do that. Try to take that away nice things from folks and you’ll have big backlash and lose the next election.

Frankly while an absolutely horrible thought but if climate change wipes out half of the population on this planet, it would probably also fix many of the issues we have:

1. Climate emissions drop hugely
2. Might be enough food and water to go around even after we’ve made parts of the planet uninhabitable
3. The government wouldn’t have to promise to build more housing in the UK We might actually have enough.

So yeah it’ll be a slow burn and won’t live to see it all but nature will cull our population and reset our numbers I think. We are both smart enough to see this coming and also too stupid to do anything to stop it.

Cloud seeding impact if any is very temporary, so likely not a factor. You are introducing additional condensation nuclei into a cloud that hasn't really got what it takes to rain. It would make little difference to a storm already laden with moisture and already forecast.

 

[Jason71]

Lets use real numbers

View attachment 1039567

So of road users 57% comes from cars. Of the rest I would say there is clear evidence that busses and vans are already converting to electric is significant numbers. HGVs represent 21% of UK emissions, and while I expect can be addressed but not for some time. So 79% of the road transport figure is ready to convert to electric.

There are very many studies the lifetime carbon impact of EVs vs ICE, take your pick, this is a fairly balanced one https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Global-LCA-passenger-cars-FS-EN-jul2021.pdf. The 'cost of manufacture' premium of batteries is tiny compared to the fuel usage of a petrol car, overall the lifetime emissions are 1/3 of ICE, and that's going to decrease as the grid gets cleaner. As here in the UK we already have a cleaner grid than the EU average it's likely our figures would be even better. I don't really see how cars being shipped from China is a factor, plenty of ICE cars come from China, Korea and Japan, and plenty of EVs are made in Europe. My wife's Leaf just came down the A1 from Sunderland. I do find that many people don't intuitively realise just how much fuel goes through an ICE engine, over it's lifetime a 50mpg petrol car is likely to burn more than 10x it's weight in fuel.

No one is scrapping existing ICE cars because they aren't electric, they just get sold on down the chain. They still live out their life until they are uneconomic to repair. Actually there is a small argument that after about 7 years on average it would have been better to scrap them, and that's probably shorter for less efficient models, but it's too long of a prediction to be worth considering.

Source: Transport and environment statistics 2022

Of cars actually manufactured in the UK I would be interested to know how much of the raw materials are actually domestically sourced. I would think the majority by weight is steel, aluminium, and plastic (oil) and I am guessing most of that comes from abroad possibly from quite a long way away these days. We probably make our own glass though. We have plenty of sand.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Lets use real numbers

View attachment 1039567

So of road users 57% comes from cars. Of the rest I would say there is clear evidence that busses and vans are already converting to electric is significant numbers. HGVs represent 21% of UK emissions, and while I expect can be addressed but not for some time. So 79% of the road transport figure is ready to convert to electric.

There are very many studies the lifetime carbon impact of EVs vs ICE, take your pick, this is a fairly balanced one https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Global-LCA-passenger-cars-FS-EN-jul2021.pdf. The 'cost of manufacture' premium of batteries is tiny compared to the fuel usage of a petrol car, overall the lifetime emissions are 1/3 of ICE, and that's going to decrease as the grid gets cleaner. As here in the UK we already have a cleaner grid than the EU average it's likely our figures would be even better. I don't really see how cars being shipped from China is a factor, plenty of ICE cars come from China, Korea and Japan, and plenty of EVs are made in Europe. My wife's Leaf just came down the A1 from Sunderland. I do find that many people don't intuitively realise just how much fuel goes through an ICE engine, over it's lifetime a 50mpg petrol car is likely to burn more than 10x it's weight in fuel.

No one is scrapping existing ICE cars because they aren't electric, they just get sold on down the chain. They still live out their life until they are uneconomic to repair. Actually there is a small argument that after about 7 years on average it would have been better to scrap them, and that's probably shorter for less efficient models, but it's too long of a prediction to be worth considering.

Source: Transport and environment statistics 2022

I don’t read all of these but generally you’ll see articles that will present both sides of the story, I don’t have all the facts and figures to calculate it all.

Aware cars get passed down. I wonder though if an EV will have a shelf life like an ICE or they’ll be scrapped sooner. Not even maybe suggesting around the battery though they will degrade limiting the range and replacing it is uneconomical on a car that’s not worth much. It’s more that cars are becoming far more technically advanced. A lot of features won’t work without a data connection, cloud servers and so on. When that stops working on old models, the car might move but lots of other features will die. Will people still drive them or scrap them easier for a newer car?

I still think some emissions are probably hidden or in the wrong place but not looked into it. 9% is shipping but is that all boats that are UK registered or all boats that ship goods to the UK? So that boat of Tesla’s that comes here, are we taking the hit for the CO2 there or the country that has that ship registered against it? Seeing as we have a massive trade deficit that probably works in our favour if it’s not on our countries books.