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California water

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And forget about the nuclear power plant. They're in need of LARGE amounts of fresh water for cooling. Doesn't make sense at all to use those for desalination.

Long-term, given that we tackle climate change asap, desalination with the help of solar/wind power coupled with stationary battery storage is the most likely solution to the problem. But this is far out, maybe 20-30 years. Short-term solution is to tax water to raise prices for industry, agriculture and residents. Water is a precious resource and should be regarded and treated as such. If we don't switch to renewables asap, even desalination of water won't help for most arid regions in the world.

Don't get me wrong, but when I was in Cal a couple of years ago, I had the feeling that some home owners really didn't care at all about water as a precious resource. It DOES make a difference if several million people reduced watering plants and lawns in arid areas of the state. Plus, agriculture, industry and power plants should be held accountable for water overuse.

The issue with climate change is a long-term problem. If we all continue to burn fossil fuels on this planet as if there was no impact on our atmosphere, our grand children will inherit a world in which California is as dry as the Sahara. This is no overstatement.
 
From a power and water perspective utilizing renewables to pump water into large reservoirs upstream could potentially solve two issues. The water pumped when renewable power is available runs back through turbines to generate power while at the same time being drawn out for utilities. They already do this in some areas. Obviously the scale would have to be much larger for it to work and at a huge expense. As someone who's not familiar with earthquakes I'd be nervous about having nuclear plants near active fault lines. Granted a dam break would also be catastrophic but without the contamination from fallout.
 
There is no water crisis. Hello? CA has an ocean of water on its coasts. All it takes is desalination plants which may make water more expensive, but we will never run out.

That's like saying that we should use Hydrogen for power because it's the most abundant element in the universe.

and to those that think that desalinization plants can just use renewable power, well anything can use renewable power and electricity is one of the more transportable commodities around. It makes very little sense to couple energy production with energy consumption. The decision to build renewable power plants should be done independent of the construction of desalinization plants.
That being said, if you can build a plant that kills two birds with one stone (e.g., creates nuclear power while desalinizing the water) that's a different story. Of course, good luck marketing drinking water produced at a nuclear power plant. "Disinfected with gamma rays!" doesn't seem likely to be a hit with the public.
 
Didn't know. I thought nuclear plants need fresh water since saline water was damaging parts long-term (rust and oxidation)?

They need fresh water for the steam turbines, but the bulk of cooling is just sea water passing through. The sea around a nuclear plant is often many degrees hotter than normal and sometimes there are tropical fish, coral and the like in northern waters. The types of plants used today will normally heat the water between 10-12 centigrade.
 
California is looking into all sorts of options for this drought situation.

There is absolutely no shortage of fresh water in California, just a shortage of easy and cheap water to supply to the cities and farming.

The city of Colorado even is considering tapping into the fresh water making capabilities of the 3 nuclear aircraft carriers that are usually parked here in the Bay. They can produce enough fresh drinking water for many thousands of citizens, it is just expensive to set up the plumbing to get the water ashore.

About 25% of California's fresh water is sequestered for environmental reasons. Billions of gallons are flushed into streams to keep protected fish and animals from perishing. Riparian areas are kept flooded to provide habitat for protected birds and animals. They have a higher priority than the citizens, as they have very vocal proponents.

Other water, coming down from the hills, is channeled into storm drains, which flow to the ocean. There is no infrastructure to capture this fresh water for people to use. It just gets wasted.

Once this water shortage became politicized, all sense and reason went away, and everybody switched to seeing how much money can be channeled into coffers instead of water being channeled into storage tanks.
 
I have not read every post here and I apologize for that...

We are fooling ourselves if we think we can continue to use water like we have. Or energy, or earthly resources. If we get great wet years in the future, then maybe we will be OK for the short term. Snow pack was FIVE PERCENT OF NORMAL this year. That is a huge deal. We need to wake up. I put in a (as I like to call it) fake plastic green lawn over 3000 SF in order to stop using water. Yes, it cost a bloody fortune. I am lucky that I could it, but I did borrow to do it because I feel so strongly about this. But I am glad I did it. I live alone in a 2,000SF house and I have brought my water usage down to 48, yes, 48 gal per day. With no inconvenience whatsoever. Californians need to wake up. Lush and verdant gardens in a coastal desert simply do not make sense.

Humans need to understand and accept that we cannot continue to rape our planet and expect no consequences. How gluttonous must we be? And it's not just the USA, though we are the worst.

My fear is that it is just plain too late and our grand and great grandchildren will suffer terribly.

It breaks my heart as my sister had her first grandchild last week.

Thanks for reading.
 
California is looking into all sorts of options for this drought situation.

There is absolutely no shortage of fresh water in California, just a shortage of easy and cheap water to supply to the cities and farming.

The city of Colorado even is considering tapping into the fresh water making capabilities of the 3 nuclear aircraft carriers that are usually parked here in the Bay. They can produce enough fresh drinking water for many thousands of citizens, it is just expensive to set up the plumbing to get the water ashore.

About 25% of California's fresh water is sequestered for environmental reasons. Billions of gallons are flushed into streams to keep protected fish and animals from perishing. Riparian areas are kept flooded to provide habitat for protected birds and animals. They have a higher priority than the citizens, as they have very vocal proponents.

Other water, coming down from the hills, is channeled into storm drains, which flow to the ocean. There is no infrastructure to capture this fresh water for people to use. It just gets wasted.

Once this water shortage became politicized, all sense and reason went away, and everybody switched to seeing how much money can be channeled into coffers instead of water being channeled into storage tanks.

+1. The article below by Terry Tamminen (former secretary of the CA EPA) lays it out nicely. Cities in Southern California like LA get more than enough rainfall every year to cover all of their water needs. All they need to do is stop flushing it out to the ocean and instead store it. The article points to Sun Valley in LA county that did exactly this. They retain more water than they need and can sell back the excess to water boards. If southern CA cities did this, we could stop sucking water from the Owens valley, the north and the Colorado river.

IMHO, this is the answer: distributed storage of rainfall, just like distributed energy generation by roof-top solar. The key is pricing water at the right amount to make this viable.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102581700
 
Interesting thread, I'll add my thoughts for whatever they may be worth...

San Diego (actually Carlsbad) has a desalination plant that will come online fairly soon. 50 million gallons per day that will provide 7% of the counties water needs. My understanding is that these plants require almost insane amounts of power to generate the water. Solving the water problem by releasing CO2 from power plants is kind of like running around in your leaking boat in spiked golf shows to bail it out. Yeah it works, but you are just compounding the problem really.

Back when they messed up the San Onofre retrofit, one of the options being discussed was to run the reactor at a very reduced level to not stress the parts that Mitsubishi changed the design of. This seemed like a good idea to me at the time. Run it at a reduced rate for a while, shut it down, examine the parts in question to make sure that they can sustain that level of use for long periods, then run even longer. I also thought it might be a good idea if the power generated were to be used for desalination, solves the problem stated above. I think the general populations fear of nuclear power was partly responsible for getting the plant permanently shut down. I myself am both pro-nuclear power and very Green, even if that is not the usual combo platter. I hate to see a power producing asset that has a useful life left and also generated no CO2 simply being removed from service if it could have been otherwise put to use.

I think lawns are going to be a thing of the past. Everyone (almost) has a front yard full of grass that serves no useful purpose, other than that is what everyone has, and that seems to be what is perceived as beautiful. Our house has a front lawn, but we have raised bed planters in the back with no grass whatsoever. Just grow plants that do well in the local climate, though some water is required. We are in the process of having the front lawn ripped out with a higher end drought tolerant landscape put in. Hiring my cousin to do the job. Hoping to inspire the neighbors to follow suit.

It also seems crazy that something as precious as water distribution and rights are being governed by agreements signed hundreds of years ago. You have farmers growing rice and almonds, while some of the cities are running out of water. Don't get me wrong, we all need to eat, but farmers who consume 80% of the water to generate 2% of the states GDP need to get a serious clue. I heard that Jerry was going to come out with some new "rules" for the agricultural sector, can't come soon enough. Adult Supervision is definitely lacking here.

I read a nice article in Scientific American a couple years ago about treating sewage runoff (and presumably rainfall going there) and turning it directly into potable water. I was skeptical of this, but the modern methods used removed even trace amounts of pharmaceuticals and organic compounds. They are required to first mix it with other water before it goes into the treatment facility. Which is kind of ironic because the water in question is actually purer than the water it is being mixed in with. A plant was built somewhere here in SoCal a couple decades ago, but the toilet to tap meme caused a public uproar and the plant was mothballed. It seems like now would be a good time to un-mothball the plant, and start building many more such plants.

Agree that people are basically lazy, and that the only real way to get serious compliance with reducing water is to raise the price. We cut down shower time to a minimum (Navy showers) and use low flow faucets, but I'm sure many don't do this voluntarily.

I saw that graphic the other day in the LA Times about what kind of food requires what level of water. Good God Man! Beef is 106 gallons per ounce of meat! That 16 oz Hawaiian Rib Eye that I get periodically at Houston's is 1,696 gallons of water. We cut back seriously on red meat consumption a while back. For health reasons as well as water reasons. Not really that hard to do, and you enjoy it even more when you don't eat it as often. Changing peoples food consumption pattern is a pretty hard sell, the serious meat heads will squeal even louder than the pork they are eating. Most likely higher prices for food requiring more water will be needed to curtail their consumption. Sadly this hits the poor more than the wealthy, but it may improve everyones health in the long run.

I think if everyone gave a "little", the problem would be easily solved. Unfortunately, no one gives an inch here, ever, welcome to America. Get rid of the lawns, slight change in diet, re-use the water going down the drains, desalination, etc. And to all my rich farming friends: You are using 80% of the water in a state where we are rapidly running out of it. And I can assure you, it is not going to be getting any better anytime soon. Just because you have a document signed in 1872 that says you can use an insane amount of said resource to grow rice in the desert doesn't mean that it's the "right" thing to do. Ask yourself how you can be part of the solution, and stop being part of the problem.

Food/Water link:
http://graphics.latimes.com/food-water-footprint/

Scientific American Story:
How to Overcome the "Yuck Factor" to Extend Water Supplies - Scientific American

The trouble with San Onofre:
The Trouble With the San Onofre Nuclear Plant - Voice of San Diego

Carlsbad Desalination plant:
Carlsbad Desalination Project | Desalination Plant


Orange County toilet to tap:
Slideshow: California Drought: Orange County expands 'toilet to tap' water recycling | 89.3 KPCC
 
The California Costal Comission has denied all permits for new contruction of desalination plants on the Central Coast. With a degree in Marine Biology, I feel their denial was not justified.

Recently Cambria was able to get an emergency order from the state which allowed them to proceed without permission from the Coastal Comission, but the order expired while everyone was trying to figure out who will pay for the 58 million to build it and the power to operate it in the future. Construction will take several years once started.

At California's peak rate, just the power to desalinate a gallon of Water is $.01 Thus the power requirement for one Unit of water is $7.50 at peak residential rates. Locally community water users pay $7.82 to 9.80 per unit now. Desal water will triple rates for local users, but better than no water!!! I am lucky and on a well, in a good area with more water than usual.
I have lived in California my whole life and this water problem is not new, in the early 70's they put a pipe line across the Richmond San Rafael Bridge to pump water to Marin County. Water is a finite resource and people keep coming to California, I agree with Desalinaziation, yes it is energy intensive but improving technology getting better and as far as cost, what do you think it is going to cost to do the tunnel to ship water from the north to the south(we do not have water here either).
 

+1. The article below by Terry Tamminen (former secretary of the CA EPA) lays it out nicely. Cities in Southern California like LA get more than enough rainfall every year to cover all of their water needs. All they need to do is stop flushing it out to the ocean and instead store it. The article points to Sun Valley in LA county that did exactly this. They retain more water than they need and can sell back the excess to water boards. If southern CA cities did this, we could stop sucking water from the Owens valley, the north and the Colorado river.

IMHO, this is the answer: distributed storage of rainfall, just like distributed energy generation by roof-top solar. The key is pricing water at the right amount to make this viable.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102581700

Well, L.A. might be a particularly poor example.
I calculate that it uses some 27 billion cubic feet of water, but has only about 17 billion cubic feet of rainfall.

but I get your point.

In the Bay Area, a lot of our rain water flows into reservoirs. These reservoirs "charge" the ground water, and the ground water is pumped. I imagine that's not as efficient as large concrete cisterns, but I'm not sure what the cost would be of a cistern that can store a year's water for a few million people.
Smaller sized cisterns cost about $1/gallon. That's a cost of more than $50k per person. I'm sure economies of scale could make it somewhat cheaper, but it looks like it would still be freakin' expensive.
 
Some years back, San Diego constructed a water recycling plant near Mira Mesa. It produces low quality water for irrigation and other uses. This spearheaded the now well known Purple Pipes that distribute this non-drinkable water. It costs so much, nobody wants it, and has resulted in the plant flushing most of it's production right into the ocean.

While it was cheered on by the environmentalists, the result has been a giant boondoggle, producing little water, but at great expense.

I believe the real solution for bringing water to the citizens is two fold. Force the population to reduce their luxury of inexpensive water (lower quality of life) or invest the necessary resources to transport earth's water from areas where there is too much to areas with too little water.

If California would take the money they are spending on a stupid high speed choo choo train to nowhere, and use it to transport water, that would be a fantastic start.

If instead, they would adopt Elon's Hyperloop technology, instead of 18th Century slow rail, people could be transported rapidly from city to city, and that right of way could also be used to pipe water if necessary.

Some years ago, they mandated that all homes and businesses replace their standard toilets with low flow toilets. This was a great way to reduce water use, however with the lower volume of water, the feeces no longer would be cleanly flushed to the processing plant. The pipes clogged and backed up. Sometimes you just need to use the right amount of water to get the job done.