Australian standards for home charging an Electric Vehicle.

[sishome]

I believe that has changed. From memory you can have 1x15A + 8x10A or 2x15A + 4x10A on one circuit. It is up to the user not to draw more than 20A total if it is on a 20A circuit breaker with appropriate wiring (which it normally would be).

I can charge my car and run some lights perfectly safely and legally. If I want to plug in a 10A appliance, I just make sure I'm not charging my car. Since I set my car to start charging at midnight every night, it is normally not charging if I want to plug in a power tool or something.

And if I don't - I trip the 20A breaker. That is how it is supposed to work. We have actually finally improved on the archaic regulations that arbitrarily limited the number of outlets per circuit without any consideration as to what those outlets might actually be used for in practice.

Look, if I was building from new, of course I would put the 15A GPO on a dedicated circuit. Because then I wouldn't be restricted in what I plug into my 10A GPO's. But for me to retrofit that now is expensive - I can't run a new cable easily and my breaker panel is full. So please don't over-regulate me. What I have now works and is safe.

Yes, but again, that is a recommendation, which is very logical. You literally need to think very-very hard and fight that unbearable desire to plug in a kettle on the same circuit while your EV is charging. Not everyone is capable of such self-discipline.

 

[meloccom]

Which tells something about the quality of electrical installation and not about the end user or lack of regulations.

So someone plugs in more loads than a power board is clearly labeled and designed for and this results in a fire. Then this is the fault of the quality of the electrical installation not the end user.
Sorry I don’t follow, it appears to me to be a mistake of the end user.

 

[unharmed]

It’s like electricians have no one else left but EV owners to milk.
EV is nothing more than an electric appliance.

I'm not an electrician. Actually, a retired ambo. Been to too many house fires over the years and seen a few crispy former human bodies in that time. Hence my desire to save lives through minimum standards.

 

[sishome]

So someone plugs in more loads than a power board is clearly labeled and designed for and this results in a fire. Then this is the fault of the quality of the electrical installation not the end user.
Sorry I don’t follow, it appears to me to be a mistake of the end user.

Power boards should have at least overload protection, which is a minimum Australian standard. If the fire was caused by a power board, it means the manufacturer of the power board has not assured the quality of their product. You cannot regulate misuse or deliberate destructive actions. I repeat again: a suicide cord costs less than $10 and can be made by a schoolchild.

 

[sishome]

I'm not an electrician. Actually, a retired ambo. Been to too many house fires over the years and seen a few crispy former human bodies in that time. Hence my desire to save lives through minimum standards.

Then the minimum standard should be banning all electricity in houses. The problem is, of course, those future former humans will start open fires in their houses, which would add more work to your former colleagues.

Meanwhile, I am almost sure you are walking in public places without an N95 respirator, and there are way too many - many, many, many more than of those died of fires caused by charging EVs through faulty power board connected to a faulty extension cable - former humans adding up every week in our morgues because they decided they don't need any protection against new infectious diseases.

 

[unharmed]

What would be the point of that?

The 15A UMC pig tail does not have an industrial screw type plug.

And why does the circuit have to be dedicated? Does it really matter if I'm running my Christmas Fairy lights off the same circuit as my 15A power point? This is my current set up at home and I don't feel unsafe. My 15A point is a high quality outdoor rated Clipsal one.

You do, what you do. Obviously, you have some/ a lot of electrical knowledge. The minimum standards are instigated to protect unenlightened people from themselves. Remember there are some rather run down palaces out there with some neglected electrical wiring. As to the Industrial screw type plug and the current 15amp tail. Once minimum standards are brought in then it would obviously be a requirement to sell the 3 types of plug within the kit. Or just the 15-amp industrial plug type and if you require the other tails, you can purchase them separately.

I believe that if we the consumer push for a minimum standard (15amp industrial plug), then we are likely to get more sense from regulators. I like to think of various choices/decisions in life as Gold, Silver, Bronze, and Copper.

The Gold standard in this case is to install a wall box.
The Silver standard in this case is to install a 32-amp industrial plug
The Bronze Standard in this case is to install a 15-amp Industrial Plug.
The Copper standard in this case is to install a 15-amp GPO plug.

I see the government/public service as being intrinsically lazy, in they will eventually get around to instigating standards once there is a big enough howl about house fires caused by people plugging in EV's to charge, whether they are the root cause or not. If we get in and push for say the "silver" standard. Rather than wait for the government to just follow what Norway has done. Sooner or later, you know this will happen, why not get in front of it?

Then there is the discussion of how best to instigate and foster this program. Does the government just make it a mandatory requirement for all new builds?
Do they instigate some sort of rebate ($500) to retrofit a home garage with either the Gold or Silver standard?
When should these rebates be instigated? Sooner or later, do they remove some current rebate and rejig it to the same amount but with a mandatory amount for wiring your garage?

Food for thought?

 

[paulp]

I'm not an electrician. Actually, a retired ambo. Been to too many house fires over the years and seen a few crispy former human bodies in that time. Hence my desire to save lives through minimum standards.

I doubt many, if any, of those crispy humans is from ev charging. Electrocution and fires from the lack of earth leakage protection on the other hand is a well known, and yet politicians refuse to mandate their retrofit over a reasonable period of time. If they cannot get their heads around that danger, than ev charging is going to be well down their thinking process.

 

[paulp]

You do, what you do. Obviously, you have some/ a lot of electrical knowledge. The minimum standards are instigated to protect unenlightened people from themselves. Remember there are some rather run down palaces out there with some neglected electrical wiring. As to the Industrial screw type plug and the current 15amp tail. Once minimum standards are brought in then it would obviously be a requirement to sell the 3 types of plug within the kit. Or just the 15-amp industrial plug type and if you require the other tails, you can purchase them separately.

I believe that if we the consumer push for a minimum standard (15amp industrial plug), then we are likely to get more sense from regulators. I like to think of various choices/decisions in life as Gold, Silver, Bronze, and Copper.

The Gold standard in this case is to install a wall box.
The Silver standard in this case is to install a 32-amp industrial plug
The Bronze Standard in this case is to install a 15-amp Industrial Plug.
The Copper standard in this case is to install a 15-amp GPO plug.

I see the government/public service as being intrinsically lazy, in they will eventually get around to instigating standards once there is a big enough howl about house fires caused by people plugging in EV's to charge, whether they are the root cause or not. If we get in and push for say the "silver" standard. Rather than wait for the government to just follow what Norway has done. Sooner or later, you know this will happen, why not get in front of it?

Then there is the discussion of how best to instigate and foster this program. Does the government just make it a mandatory requirement for all new builds?
Do they instigate some sort of rebate ($500) to retrofit a home garage with either the Gold or Silver standard?
When should these rebates be instigated? Sooner or later, do they remove some current rebate and rejig it to the same amount but with a mandatory amount for wiring your garage?

Food for thought?

But would not the less intelligent person you are trying to protect just opt for your bronze option because its cheapest, then plug that cruddy 10amp extension lead into it?

 

[paulp]

Power boards should have at least overload protection, which is a minimum Australian standard. If the fire was caused by a power board, it means the manufacturer of the power board has not assured the quality of their product. You cannot regulate misuse or deliberate destructive actions. I repeat again: a suicide cord costs less than $10 and can be made by a schoolchild.

And bunnings will happily sell them the parts to make it

 

[sishome]

Remember there are some rather run down palaces out there with some neglected electrical wiring.

Please don't tell me this is because we don't have a multi-level excessive overregulations for banning emergency charging of EVs using 10A power points.

 

[sishome]

And bunnings will happily sell them the parts to make it

Exactly. And that less intelligent person would just go to bunnings, buy 5 metres of the cheapest wire, clean the insulation with a kitchen knife and stuff it into the wall socket (or, even better, into that 32A industrial socket) on one side and nicely wrap it around the pins of UMC. And there will be no regulation, which will ban this person from doing it.

 

[unharmed]

Exactly. And that less intelligent person would just go to bunnings, buy 5 metres of the cheapest wire, clean the insulation with a kitchen knife and stuff it into the wall socket on one side and nicely wrap it around the pins of UMC. And there will be no regulation, which will ban this person from doing it.

Personally, I prefer buying the cheapest extension lead and cutting the female end off.

However, we are never going to protect those that willingly make catastrophic errors from themselves, what we are trying to do with minimum standards is protect those that are less technically educated. Sure, we are making our society into a bunch of soft, illiterate numpties, which have little compression of how things truly work.

 

[sishome]

Personally, I prefer buying the cheapest extension lead and cutting the female end off.

However, we are never going to protect those that willingly make catastrophic errors from themselves, what we are trying to do with minimum standards is protect those that are less technically educated. Sure, we are making our society into a bunch of soft, illiterate numpties, which have little compression of how things truly work.

Household electric installations are already protected against short circuits and leak currents to a very high, if not excessively high in Australian case, standards. The problem is not standards or regulations, the problem is people and things which do not follow those standards and regulations (here, by the way, a reasonable question would be - can it be because the standards and regulations are overdone to the extent they are difficult to reasonably follow?). It is very often very low quality of components and devices you plug in and very low quality of workmanship, which are the problem.

 

[sishome]

house fires caused by people plugging in EV's to charge, whether they are the root cause or not.

This sounds to me as "whatever happened, blame EV holder". Are you on salary from shell or exxon?..

 

[sishome]

The Gold standard in this case is to install a wall box.

Next question. Suppose you get this enforced.
Let's look at two situations.
1 - No one can charge EV from anything except a permanently wired wall charger.
You are a sensible human with no "electrical education". You put your EV to charge. Due to poor workmanship (not sufficiently well tightened screws) and recent small earthquake (plenty of those in Melbourne area), a wire moves out and your installation starts a fire. You see fire coming from inside your wall. You don't know which RCBO to switch off and have very little idea why there is a switchboard on your wall. Your actions? You run in circles, cry "a-a-a" and watch your house burn down while the fire truck is doing wee-woo through the traffic jams. I sincerely hope and wish you you will never run into such a situation.

2 - EVs are allowed to be charged from a power outlet.
You are a sensible human with no "electrical education". You put your EV to charge. Due to poor workmanship (not sufficiently well tightened screws) your power socket overheats and develops fire. You see fire coming from inside your wall. While you still don't know which RCBO to switch off and have very little idea why there is a switchboard on your wall, you decide to plug the device off the socket. You plug it out and the fire extinguishes. Your actions? You call your electrician and tell him he is an arschloch and you will never use his services again.

What is gold and what is silver here now?
You see, the ability to physically remove faulty device, which causes problems, is a good thing. Hardwired devices are intrinsically not safe because they cannot be easily unpowered by a human with no electrical education. This is why hardwired devices have more strict standards, but this cannot exclude an earthquake and poor workmanship, and as a person with no electrical education you have no way to ensure proper workmanship.

 

[paulp]

This sounds to me as "whatever happened, blame EV holder". Are you on salary from shell or exxon?..

Lets keep the discussion civil and avoid references to fossilised suppliers

 

[meloccom]

Next question. Suppose you get this enforced.
Let's look at two situations.
1 - No one can charge EV from anything except a permanently wired wall charger.
You are a sensible human with no "electrical education". You put your EV to charge. Due to poor workmanship (not sufficiently well tightened screws) and recent small earthquake (plenty of those in Melbourne area), a wire moves out and your installation starts a fire. You see fire coming from inside your wall. You don't know which RCBO to switch off and have very little idea why there is a switchboard on your wall. Your actions? You run in circles, cry "a-a-a" and watch your house burn down while the fire truck is doing wee-woo through the traffic jams. I sincerely hope and wish you you will never run into such a situation.

2 - EVs are allowed to be charged from a power outlet.
You are a sensible human with no "electrical education". You put your EV to charge. Due to poor workmanship (not sufficiently well tightened screws) your power socket overheats and develops fire. You see fire coming from inside your wall. While you still don't know which RCBO to switch off and have very little idea why there is a switchboard on your wall, you decide to plug the device off the socket. You plug it out and the fire extinguishes. Your actions? You call your electrician and tell him he is an arschloch and you will never use his services again.

What is gold and what is silver here now?
You see, the ability to physically remove faulty device, which causes problems, is a good thing. Hardwired devices are intrinsically not safe because they cannot be easily unpowered by a human with no electrical education. This is why hardwired devices have more strict standards, but this cannot exclude an earthquake and poor workmanship, and as a person with no electrical education you have no way to ensure proper workmanship.

Again, not an electrician, but the electrician that installed my wall connector also included an isolation switch directly adjacent to the wall connector. So in scenario 2, I would unplug the car first and then turn off the isolation switch to power down the wall connector.
Still a bit confused by your position so I will leave it here.

 

[cafz]

You see fire coming from inside your wall. You don't know which RCBO to switch off and have very little idea why there is a switchboard on your wall. Your actions? You run in circles, cry "a-a-a" and watch your house burn down while the fire truck is doing wee-woo through the traffic jams.

Surely the prudent person, when not knowing which CB to turn off, would turn them all off?

 

[sishome]

Still a bit confused by your position so I will leave it here.

My position is there is no need for any additional regulations regarding EV charging. The necessary regulations are already in place, there is a whole section added to the standards on EV charging, which explicitly provides all necessary installation details for electricians. The problem, which is always there, is the quality control and basic education of people, but it cannot and should not be solved by adding more and more regulations.

 

[sishome]

Surely the prudent person, when not knowing which CB to turn off, would turn them all off?

You still have some faith in humanity left, I see.