Apple Co Founder: "FSD is a frightening, horrible experience".

[2101Guy]

Apple co-founder Wozniak takes aim at ‘dishonest’ Elon Musk for misleading Tesla buyers: ‘They robbed my family of so much money’

'Woz' bought into Musk's claims of a self-driving vehicle years ago, only to be bitterly disappointed by how little turned out to be true.

www.yahoo.com

 

[2101Guy]

“A lot of honesty disappears when you look at Elon Musk and Tesla"

“They have robbed my family—myself and my wife—of so much money I couldn’t tell you, with things they said that we really believed would be real,” Wozniak said.

 

[Knightshade]

In particular Wozniak complained about spending tens of thousands of dollars on the latest self-driving technology since 2016

....exactly how many Teslas did Woz buy in that time? FSD cost $3000 until early 2019, yet Woz, starting in 2016, has spent "tens of thousands" on it?

 

[E90alex]

....exactly how many Teslas did Woz buy in that time? FSD cost $3000 until early 2019, yet Woz, starting in 2016, has spent "tens of thousands" on it?

“Since 2016” means starting 2016 until now, no end time specified. Considering FSD is currently $15k, it’s quite easy to spend “tends of thousands”.

 

[Knightshade]

“Since 2016” means starting 2016 until now, no end time specified. Considering FSD is currently $15k, it’s quite easy to spend “tends of thousands”.

And starting in 2016 it was $3000.... and 2017, and 2018, and some of 2019.

Then it was 6-7k the rest of 2019... and 8-10k for all 2020 and 2021.

It only became $15,000 like 5 months ago.


So either mentioning 2016 makes no sense here-- or claiming tens of thousands makes no sense here-- or he has purchased FSD for a more-than-average number of Teslas over many years.

Which, if it kept not being what he thought it was, begs the question of why did he keep buying it?


That's apart from the hilarious idea a dude worth like $100,000,000+ according to most estimates would consider like 30k SO MUCH MONEY.

 

[beatle]

That's apart from the hilarious idea a dude worth like $100,000,000+ according to most estimates would consider like 30k SO MUCH MONEY.

The vast majority of the public would consider $30k to be a lot of money. Shows that Woz has not lost touch with reality despite his wealth. He sounds to be more upset by the principle, not the principal.

 

[Madmolecule]

What does this Woz guy know about technology and hardware design. Oh I forgot, the brains behind Jobs. I do feel better knowing that someone much smarter than me believed the Kickstarter hype BS. I actually repeated the claims as facts, to many of my engineering friends. I lived through the palm-pilot and pocket PC years and I witnessed my world change with the iPhone. Still a Mac guy and the M2 processor is sweet.

don’t forget to add auto pilot in your cost calculation, in addition to the cost of future full self driving. Most cars you don’t pay extra for cruise control.
they even got me for 2K for software acceleration boost. But Elon did give us waypoints, catquest and semi functional automatic bright lights.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

“Robbed my family”…. Boo. Hoo. I’ve spent money on a lot dumber things than AP/FSD. Cry me a river.

 

[kabin]

....exactly how many Teslas did Woz buy in that time? FSD cost $3000 until early 2019, yet Woz, starting in 2016, has spent "tens of thousands" on it?

They likely purchase a new Tesla every year or two. Gotta include FSD's initial cost, necessary $2k to $3k hardware upgrades, and how ever big his family is. It could easily be over $100k in related FSD expenses when including parents, in-laws, and kids. Heck, if he bought a new Tesla for himself and one for his wife it's a $30k empty bill of FSD goods.

Other than that, I think his view on Tesla/Musk's dishonesty is pretty solid.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

We've purchased 15 Teslas since 2016. We've spent $34,000 on AP/EAP and $44,860 on FSD. On my 2022 Model S, we spent $0 on EAP/FSD and don't have any plans on subscribing. The same goes for the 2023 Model Y that we have on order. For the 2022 Model X, we did purchase FSD since we were locked in at the "bargain" price of $10,000.

I should mention that one reason we won't subscribe is because basic Autopilot is included these days. It is annoying that basic Autopilot doesn't have auto lange change, however if they offered that as a separate package, we might buy it.

 

[Knightshade]

The vast majority of the public would consider $30k to be a lot of money.

Sure, but the vast majority of the public aren't buying double-digit number of Teslas, or another every year or two, and then adding FSD to every one despite being disappointed by FSD, either.

I was happy to pay 3k for FSD myself- I certainly wouldn't pay 15k for it today unless/unit there's significant added features/better reliability.

THAT said- folks also need to remember back when it was 3k, that was on top of the 5k that EAP cost. And EAP was WELL worth the money (and still is). So really your net was still 8k...meaning it's only just now in 2022 that the total cost for FSD is a lot higher than it was from 2016-2021.

 

[Midpack]

Musk is famous for ridiculously optimistic timelines, I thought that was well known. But he has built a profitable company offering a great EV, FSD notwithstanding. I only hope someone (may not be Tesla) perfects full self driving before I’m too old to renew my license, but until then it’s just a novelty to me. YMMV

Hard to fell sympathy for Woz, who left Apple in 1985, what has he done since? Most average Joe’s like me judge Tesla by what they actually offer, not Elon’s future predictions.

 

[DarkForest]

In the April 2019 Tesla Autonomy Day at 3:31:44:

Colin Lang: Colin Lang in UBS, just so that we understand the definitions, when you refer to "feature complete self-driving," it sounds like you're talking level five, no geo-fence, is that what's expected by the end of year, just so we're all on the same thing.

Elon Musk: Yes.

Colin Lang: And then the regulatory process, I mean, have you talked to regulators about this? This seems quite an aggressive timeline from what other people have put out there. I mean, are they... you know, what are the hurdles that are needed and what is the timeline to get approval and do you need things like in California, I know they're tracking miles that, you know, it's an operator behind that. Do you need those things? What is that process going to look like?

Elon Musk: Yeah, we talk to regulators around the world all the time. As we introduce, you know, additional features like Navigate on Autopilot, we, you know... this requires regulatory approval on a per jurisdiction basis, so... But I think fundamentally regulators, in my experience, are convinced by data. So if you have a massive amount of data that shows that autonomy is safe, they listen to it. They may take... They may take time to digest the information. That process may take a bit of time, but they have always come to the right conclusion from what I've seen.

(emphasis mine)

I have no idea why the Woz would be confused by what Elon said the car would do... /s

 

[beatle]

Sure, but the vast majority of the public aren't buying double-digit number of Teslas, or another every year or two, and then adding FSD to every one despite being disappointed by FSD, either.

I was happy to pay 3k for FSD myself- I certainly wouldn't pay 15k for it today unless/unit there's significant added features/better reliability.

THAT said- folks also need to remember back when it was 3k, that was on top of the 5k that EAP cost. And EAP was WELL worth the money (and still is). So really your net was still 8k...meaning it's only just now in 2022 that the total cost for FSD is a lot higher than it was from 2016-2021.

It doesn't matter how many cars he bought. The principle applies to anyone who bought into the promise that has not been delivered on, whether that cost them $3k, $15k, $30k, or more. It's also frustrating to experience the regression of performance from AP1, but that's more of another topic.

 

[Maxpilot]

I'm surprised so many of you are sticking up for Musk. I agree with Woz. Musk has lied. My car will be in the junk yard well before FSD works like Musk lied to us about.

 

[Knightshade]

It doesn't matter how many cars he bought

I mean, it kinda does in this case? If you were unhappy with a thing you bought for $3000 in 2016 because in 2022 it still doesn't do what was promised, why would you pay $15,000 for that same thing on another vehicle? And if you do, that's kinda on you, not Elon at that point.

I'm surprised so many of you are sticking up for Musk. I agree with Woz. Musk has lied. My car will be in the junk yard well before FSD works like Musk lied to us about.

FWIW I'm not disagreeing that Elon has failed to hit any number of target dates/goals at all

My point was more around how a dude worth >100M bucks is complaining about a couple ten grand costing him "so much"-- or the fact that to even hit that number if he started in 2016 he'd have had to buy way more than the average # of Teslas... and keep buying a thing he says he's unhappy with over and over.

(I also wonder if maybe another way he got to that # was by counting the majority-of-the-cost-of-FSD that was EAP for so many years... despite the fact EAP is excellent and WELL worth the $, but is a requirement to have added the much-cheaper FSD on top from 2016 through 2019)

Hard to fell sympathy for Woz, who left Apple in 1985, what has he done since?

He founded the company that brought the first programmable universal remote control to market, then founded a company to make wireless GPS tracking tags almost 20 years before Apple made airtags, then served on the boards of several tech companies including the one that made the Sidekick (company later sold to Microsoft), then was head tech guy at a flash memory company bought out by Sandisk- among a number of other tech jobs.
When not continuing to do tech work he also helped found the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Tech Museum, a bunch of education/philanthropy stuff, and also founded Silicon Valley Comic Con.

Also he's still technically on Apples payroll (never left) and still gets a 6 figure salary and represents them at events and stuff.

I Never Left Apple | Officially Woz

Question from E-mail I’m not sure what your current relationship is to Apple Corporation, if any? I read a comment you made: “I only served at the bottom of Apple’s org chart all these years.” Did you ever leave Apple? If so, why? I assume you’re still a large stock-holder either way? Woz I...

woz.org

What've you been up to since 1985?

 

[azred]

Glad to see someone who has a large platform express similar sentiments to many of us who have virtually no voice apart from posting complaints here. Sure, he exaggerated but Musk is guilty of that offense, too. At a minimum, Woz’ comments are more accurate than those of Musk’s YouTube fanboys.

 

[SO16]

I only buy something if it does what I want at THAT time for THAT price.

I didn’t buy any AP when I initially bought my 2017 MS. It just came with dumb cruise control.

I did buy all of TACC/AP/EAP/FSD for 5k during the fire sale because it did what I thought was fair for that price AT THAT TIME. No way would I pay 15k for FSD today. Especially since basic AP comes with the car for free today.

I don’t know how Woz could keep making the same mistake over and over again. The “fool me once…” adage seems to apply.

Especially when it can simply be added later once it is working to one’s satisfaction. Albeit at a possibly higher price.

Elon is wrong to keep saying it will be working by end of year, etc. He shouldn’t do that. But I also don’t fault Tesla that this isn’t 100% complete. This is a tough problem.

 

[bnsfengineer]

“Robbed my family”…. Boo. Hoo. I’ve spent money on a lot dumber things than AP/FSD. Cry me a river.

ME TOOOO!!!!

 

[dachshund]

It's really too bad he said he was robbed, because the rest of his comment about Elon lying about FSD's capabilities is in agreement with much of what's written here.