Any Benefit in HW 3 Camera Replacement for Non-FSD Countries?

[ev.enthusiast]

I have browsed through the TMC forum looking for the benefits of the free HW 3 camera upgrade which Tesla offers for legacy Model X cars. What I've learned so far is that the cameras need to be replaced for legacy cars for them to get the latest updates - which includes the FSD updates.

However, I'm based in Australia where FSD is currently not available.

The question which I am trying to get answers to are the following:

1. Is it worth it to get the HW 3 camera replacement from Tesla given that in a region like Australia that is not likely to be offered FSD anytime soon?

2. Since my car has the old camera set (although it does have the MCU 2 and HW 3 Computer upgraded), it has been sitting on the 2023.26.12 for the last 6 months now. Has any of the updates after this one introduced any key new features/fixed previous issues which make it worth it to have the cameras replaced and software updates to the latest version?

3. I have the FSD option purchased for the car. However, since FSD is currently not available in Australia, Tesla offers the next best thing which is EAP with FSD visualizations (i.e. navigate off ramps from highways, auto lane change, stopping on red signals/stop signs, green signal/vehicle in front movingon signal alert, smart summon etc.). The question is, will the camera replacement have any impact on the functionality of the EAP? I saw some other threads where there was discussion about radar not being used after the HW 3 camera replacement and EAP shifting completely to vision based but couldn't get any conclusive answers regarding that. Is the EAP change from radar + vision based to vision only and if it will, is the change to vision only more reliable/better EAP performance when compared to the existing EAP performance which I get?

 

[Tam]

I have browsed through the TMC forum looking for the benefits of the free HW 3 camera upgrade which Tesla offers for legacy Model X cars. What I've learned so far is that the cameras need to be replaced for legacy cars for them to get the latest updates - which includes the FSD updates.

However, I'm based in Australia where FSD is currently not available.

The question which I am trying to get answers to are the following:

1. Is it worth it to get the HW 3 camera replacement from Tesla given that in a region like Australia that is not likely to be offered FSD anytime soon?

2. Since my car has the old camera set (although it does have the MCU 2 and HW 3 Computer upgraded), it has been sitting on the 2023.26.12 for the last 6 months now. Has any of the updates after this one introduced any key new features/fixed previous issues which make it worth it to have the cameras replaced and software updates to the latest version?

3. I have the FSD option purchased for the car. However, since FSD is currently not available in Australia, Tesla offers the next best thing which is EAP with FSD visualizations (i.e. navigate off ramps from highways, auto lane change, stopping on red signals/stop signs, green signal/vehicle in front movingon signal alert, smart summon etc.). The question is, will the camera replacement have any impact on the functionality of the EAP? I saw some other threads where there was discussion about radar not being used after the HW 3 camera replacement and EAP shifting completely to vision based but couldn't get any conclusive answers regarding that. Is the EAP change from radar + vision based to vision only and if it will, is the change to vision only more reliable/better EAP performance when compared to the existing EAP performance which I get?

In order to lose your radar function, you need to run the vision only software.

To run vision only software, it requires minimum hardware specificication:

1. MCU2
2. HW3
3. V. 2.5

If you fail in any of these 3, you can't enjoy gaining the vision only software and the loss of radar function.

If you don't meet all the minimum hardware requirements, these features are still active:

1. Radar
2. Cruise Control can be set to 90 MPH.
3. Auto Park
4. Summons

If you want to gain access to the vision only EAP, you will lose those 4 above functions. Of those losses, 2 (Auto Park, Summon) are promised to be only temporary and will come back soon. The promise was made since 2021 when the first removal of those features thanks to the vision only software. Soon, it's been 3 years.

 

[scottf200]

To run vision only software, it requires minimum hardware specificication:

1. MCU2
2. HW3
3. V. 2.5

And to be clear this is what those are?

1. MCU2 - infotainment computer (center of dash)
2. HW3 - AP and FSD computer behind the glovebox
3. V. 2.5 - cameras ?

It gets a little confusing with 2 & 3.

Autopilot, Processors and Hardware – MCU & HW Demystified – TeslaTap

teslatap.com

 

[Tam]

And to be clear this is what those are?

1. MCU2 - infotainment computer (center of dash)
2. HW3 - AP and FSD computer behind the glovebox
3. V. 2.5 - cameras ?

It gets a little confusing with 2 & 3.

Autopilot, Processors and Hardware – MCU & HW Demystified – TeslaTap

teslatap.com

V2 Cameras are RCCC (Red, Cyan, Cyan, Cyan filters)
V2.5 and above Cameras are RCCB (Red, Cyan, Cyan, Blue filters)

V2 and 2.5 cameras are exactly the same except for the filters.

V3 and above cameras have better specs like resolution, low-light sensitivity... and not just the filters.

 

[scottf200]

V2 Cameras are RCCC (Red, Cyan, Cyan, Cyan filters)
V2.5 and above Cameras are RCCB (Red, Cyan, Cyan, Blue filters)

V2 and 2.5 cameras are exactly the same except for the filters.

V3 and above cameras have better specs like resolution, low-light sensitivity... and not just the filters.

Thanks. The Teslatap image and URL I posted does show the filters the RCCC vs RCCB. It does not show V3 information. Now I'm curious.

 

[ev.enthusiast]

If you don't meet all the minimum hardware requirements, these features are still active:

1. Radar
2. Cruise Control can be set to 90 MPH.
3. Auto Park
4. Summons

If you want to gain access to the vision only EAP, you will lose those 4 above functions. Of those losses, 2 (Auto Park, Summon) are promised to be only temporary and will come back soon. The promise was made since 2021 when the first removal of those features thanks to the vision only software. Soon, it's been 3 years.

Thanks for the detailed reply @Tam . I still have all of the above 4 functionalities available on my car. From a feature stand point I think having radar based EAP right now in Australia is better than having vision only EAP. Now the question becomes of the performance and reliability of the vision based EAP versus the radar based EAP and which one's better?

The radar based EAP I have been using so far on my Model X isn't very reliable on the highways as it has a habit of phantom breaking and being confused about lane changes which causes car to sway danegrously. The second issue mostly occurs during navigating off the highways, so I don't use it for that purpose at all. As a comparison I used to own a 2016 Model S with AP 1.0 and it has nearly the same features as EAP (minus the smart summon, navigating off highways and traffic light stop/start control) but was extremely reliable on highways. Never once I had a problem with phantom breaking or confused lane changes.

Any vision only EAP Model X users can report their experience on the performance and reliability of the system?

2. Cruise Control can be set to 90 MPH.

Just curious, with vision only EAP, is there a lower speed limit at which the cruise control can be set?

 

[Tam]

The radar based EAP I have been using so far on my Model X isn't very reliable on the highways as it has a habit of phantom breaking

The rationale for ditching the radar is to eliminate phantom braking.

Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

Well this is good news!

teslamotorsclub.com

However, in so doing, it got even worse!

Without radar, even in the simple task of driving a straight line on a hot road, the cameras would mistake the mirages as obstacles!

...being confused about lane changes which causes car to sway danegrously.

That is not radar-related. It's the decision-making problem.

Unintentional steering still happens with the latest FSD beta.

Just curious, with vision only EAP, is there a lower speed limit at which the cruise control can be set?

The maximum speed for Tesla radar is 90 MPH.

The maximum speed for Tesla Vision is 85 MPH.

It's easy to check whether your software is running a radar or vision-only version.

 

[scottf200]

Just curious, with vision only EAP, is there a lower speed limit at which the cruise control can be set?

The maximum speed for Tesla radar is 90 MPH.

The maximum speed for Tesla Vision is 85 MPH.

It's easy to check whether your software is running a radar or vision-only version.

How easy to check? Is there a foolproof method besides going 86+ MPH?
It does not show up on the "Additional Vehicle Infomation" screen but you can see it lit up green on the Service Mode menu (not sure if that means anything tho).

 

[Tam]

How easy to check? Is there a foolproof method besides going 86+ MPH?
It does not show up on the "Additional Vehicle Infomation" screen but you can see it lit up green on the Service Mode menu (not sure if that means anything tho).

The physical radar itself does not turn off. It's on but only ignored by the vision-only software.

Thus, checking the health of the radar does not indicate whether you still have the software for radar or not.

 

[stopcrazypp]

In order to lose your radar function, you need to run the vision only software.

To run vision only software, it requires minimum hardware specificication:

1. MCU2
2. HW3
3. V. 2.5

If you fail in any of these 3, you can't enjoy gaining the vision only software and the loss of radar function.

If you don't meet all the minimum hardware requirements, these features are still active:

1. Radar
2. Cruise Control can be set to 90 MPH.
3. Auto Park
4. Summons

If you want to gain access to the vision only EAP, you will lose those 4 above functions. Of those losses, 2 (Auto Park, Summon) are promised to be only temporary and will come back soon. The promise was made since 2021 when the first removal of those features thanks to the vision only software. Soon, it's been 3 years.

AFAIK the latter two (Autopark and Summons) only relates to the USS. If your car is equipped with USS, those functions remain even after updating to Vision AP. The same thing applied to park assist when the cars without USS didn't have it, the existing cars with USS were unaffected.

 

[ev.enthusiast]

Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

Well this is good news!

teslamotorsclub.com

However, in so doing, it got even worse!

Without radar, even in the simple task of driving a straight line on a hot road, the cameras would mistake the mirages as obstacles!

I went through that thread you referenced and a few others related to vision based EAP/FSD issues. Seems like vision based EAP/FSD is still a work in progress with many phantom braking issues not being completely resolved. However, the radar + vision based EAP which I currently have is also nowhere near perfect or even remarkably better than vision only EAP/FSD.

That is not radar-related. It's the decision-making problem.

Unintentional steering still happens with the latest FSD beta.

It seems that from a free HW V3 camera upgrade stand point, it wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of performance and reliability of EAP/FSD features. It will be a sideways jump from one (older) imperfect tech to another (newer) imperfect tech.

The maximum speed for Tesla radar is 90 MPH.

The maximum speed for Tesla Vision is 85 MPH.

In Australia the speed limit is generally set to 110 km/h (~69 mph) and the highest speed limit is 130 km/h (~81 mph) on a few highways through sparsely populated Northern territory. This difference can be ignored in my case.

It's easy to check whether your software is running a radar or vision-only version.

How can that be done @Tam?

AFAIK the latter two (Autopark and Summons) only relates to the USS. If your car is equipped with USS, those functions remain even after updating to Vision AP. The same thing applied to park assist when the cars without USS didn't have it, the existing cars with USS were unaffected.

That is interesting! My car does have USS since it's a '17 Model X, so assuming what you mentioned is correct, I should be able to keep auto park assist and Smart Summon after the camera upgrade. Any official/well-informed information/links/threads double confirming this would be great.

 

[Tam]

AFAIK the latter two (Autopark and Summons) only relates to the USS. If your car is equipped with USS, those functions remain even after updating to Vision AP. The same thing applied to park assist when the cars without USS didn't have it, the existing cars with USS were unaffected.

I was confused radar & USS features all together as one bundle.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Tam]

How can that be done @Tam?

When there's a car in front, if your Cruise Control/Autopliot/EAP... is not on yet, you can turn it on.

You then can manually increase the set speed to the maximum.

That is interesting! My car does have USS since it's a '17 Model X, so assuming what you mentioned is correct, I should be able to keep auto park assist and Smart Summon after the camera upgrade. Any official/well-informed information/links/threads double confirming this would be great.

@stopcrazypp is correct, and I was confused between the Radar & USS features.

Your Park and Assist and Summons should work even in Vision software.

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision​

 

[ev.enthusiast]

@stopcrazypp is correct, and I was confused between the Radar & USS features.

Your Park and Assist and Summons should work even in Vision software.

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision​

Thank you very much @Tam for confirming and providing the official confirmation.

When there's a car in front, if your Cruise Control/Autopliot/EAP... is not on yet, you can turn it on.

You then can manually increase the set speed to the maximum.

Alright, I will try that on my next highway drive. Does this mean vision only cars cannot turn on their cruise control/AP/EAP if there is a car in front?

 

[Tam]

Thank you very much @Tam for confirming and providing the official confirmation.



Alright, I will try that on my next highway drive. Does this mean vision only cars cannot turn on their cruise control/AP/EAP if there is a car in front?

It doesn't mean that.

All versions can engage Cruise Control if there's a car in front, and all versions allow you to manually increase to the maximum setting: 90 MPH for radar and 85 MPH for vision.

If the car in front is stationary, your vehicle is also stationary even though you set the cruise to the maximum.

 

[scottf200]

The physical radar itself does not turn off. It's on but only ignored by the vision-only software.

Thus, checking the health of the radar does not indicate whether you still have the software for radar or not.

How easy to check? Is there a foolproof method besides going 86+ MPH?