240 volt 30 amp circuit installation question

[dmurphy]

That's interesting. Going from top to bottom (on either side) the breakers pull power from one leg, then the other leg.

Except that they don't ... take a look at the below snippet from the photo of the labeling above. For example, slots 18 & 20 both come off Leg 1, and slots 22 & 24 come off Leg 2. They don't alternate; adjacent pairs do. A 2-pole breaker in 22/24 would be be on the same phase. The electrician should've simply swapped 22 and 24, and then handle-tied 20/22 together.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Except that they don't ... take a look at the below snippet from the photo of the labeling above. For example, slots 18 & 20 both come off Leg 1, and slots 22 & 24 come off Leg 2. They don't alternate; adjacent pairs do. A 2-pole breaker in 22/24 would be be on the same phase. The electrician should've simply swapped 22 and 24, and then handle-tied 20/22 together.[/ATTACH]

Ya, alternating of pairs is a little unusual. Most panels alternate each breaker to the other 120V hot when going down the column.

Installing a common handle is a little dubious. NEC section 210.4(B) states that "Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates". It goes on to specify that a tie handle meets this requirement. This suffices for the disconnecting means. But (there's always a but) section 240.15(B) says that for the overcurrent protection, the breaker must automatically open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit on a fault, and a handle tie will not necessarily do that.

There is an exception in 240.15(B)(2) that says that a handle tie is permitted if the load is a single-phase line-to-line load (240V), which does apply to this 30A circuit.

My preference would be to use a 2-pole breaker with an internal common trip so that there is no question. However, if you move both single-pole breakers so that they're in slots 20 and 22, and install the tie handle, then you will meet the letter of the code.

However, keep in mind that the NEC specifies the minimum requirements, and various states, cities, counties, and other localities sometimes have their own specific codes that are more strict than the NEC. I have seen a few localities that don't allow the tie handle in a case like this and require the 2-pole breaker with a common internal trip.

In any case, 2 single-pole breakers that aren't tied together is a code violation and will not pass inspection.

 

[qdeathstar]

Ge panels are a little funny. But your electrician did it wrong. There should be a tie in those breakers so that when you turn it off they both go off. He needs to rearrange your panel so that a two pole mini he breaker will fit. Not too hard.

you do have 240v but your installation is currently unsafe.

 

[dmurphy]

In any case, 2 single-pole breakers that aren't tied together is a code violation and will not pass inspection.

I have absolutely nothing more to add to this thread, other than to say "KICK A** ANSWER!" @SomeJoe7777!

 

[Prosdog]

I've been away for a while, thank you all for your answers. I'll get it redone properly.

 

[Kevin-rf]

That's interesting. Going from top to bottom (on either side) the breakers pull power from one leg, then the other leg. That's why 240V breakers come together as a pair. When you snap it in place, once breaker pulls from the left leg and the other from the right so you end up with two legs out of phase with each other with 120V on each leg. If you look at a picture of the inside of a panel with no breakers installed, you can see it.View attachment 614201
Did you actually watch him connect everything? It could be (probably) just mislabeled. When you trip the one labeled "garage door opener," does it actually shut off the garage door opener?

Edit: I just re-read your original post. Maybe the box in the garage is an odd-ball. But still, killing the garage door opener should confirm.

Can I offer a theory, and its just a theory and I could be completely full of it.


[Completely off base, ignore]
The breakers in the OP's post look to me like thin 1/2 width breakers. Meaning if it was populated with normal breakers the box would have twelve, not twenty four. Someone used slim breakers to double up the number he could fit in the panel. The end result, [/Completely off base, rambling of someone up to late]

Rest still applies:

which would explain what the op is seeing is instead of every other breaker being on a different phase every two breakers are on the same phase. So positions (1,2),(5,6),(9,10),(13,14),(17,18),(21,22) are on one phase and (3,4),(7,8),(11,12),(15,16), (19,20),(23,24) are on the other phase.. So if he has to use (22,23) or (22,24).

I could be completely off base, feel free to correct me.

24 20a breakers is 480a. I am assuming the OP has only a 200a service. I would love to see the load calculation on that. It might be very easy to overload that box. I can see why the electrician didn't want to put in anything larger than 30a. Might not have wanted to squeeze in even that.

I'll let others comment on other aspects of this. But to me it was a bit dicey even before the extra circuit.

 

[brkaus]

I am curious what size breaker is feeding this sub-panel.

 

[Kevin-rf]

Rereading the OP's pictures, they doubled up the breakers by design. So weird, but the rest still applies.

Also, the panel says max 125a in a single phase configuration. I assume when wired as the 2 phase panel that this is, the max is also 125a. That thing has the potential for a scary amount of current well over 125a.

 

[StephenSegari]

Your electrician is an idiot. That should be redone.

* Bump the garage opener single pole up one slot.
* Plug in and wire a double pole 60amp breaker in the bottom.

If the charger works as-is right now, then the panel (sub or not) is able to supply adequate voltage, and you should be ok with the above recommendation.

 

[Kevin-rf]

StephenSergari, you should really read the images he posted of that panel. breakers 23 and 24 are on the same phase. For this to work he would have to put the double pole breaker on 22 and 23. So the opener would need to move to position 24, not 22. Also, the labeling says that panel with 500a worth of breakers in the picture is limited to 125a at any one time. It is already well beyond it's capacity, so lets not suggest bumping up to 60a.

 

[CharleyBC]

Looks like a normal 2 pole breaker would work fine if in slots 20-22 based on wiring diagram. Move whatever is currently in 22 down to 24.

I wouldn't ever advise using single pole breakers on 240V legs. Very easy for you to have one trip and still have power on part of the circuit that "doesn't work" when you're troubleshooting.

The schematic is helpful. And using 20 and 22 for the car is exactly what I would have suggested. The solution taken seems lazy. I mean, how hard is it to move the garage door circuit down one slot? And like others, I worry about your whole charger circuit not tripping together. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't to code.

 

[TheRFMan]

I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't to code.

There is nowhere in Canada or USA that this meets electrical code requirements. The problem is not that the two breakers are not adjacent, it's that they are not tied together. Then again, it's pretty difficult to tie two breakers together if they are not adjacent.

 

[run-the-joules]

Then again, it's pretty difficult to tie two breakers together if they are not adjacent.

Only if you go in with that attitude