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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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(rough numbers in for Tesla... precision here isn't the point)

This is why I will most likely not change my general short position on TSLA in the near future. When will Tesla Auto ever substantially contribute to the $100B to $1T market cap claims by longs or even the $36B it currently holds? TSLA is currently priced at levels that the company doesn't even have medium term goals for... 1m/yr M3 by 2020 is the last stated goal which doesn't even justify the current position in the list above.

I understand CAGR... but when I look at this... and consider risk of execution combined with how many years out this stock is priced... and in those years the competition will only increase... I just don't get it... Unless everyone expects Tesla to just drop auto and just become Tesla Energy... go ahead and rail me... what am I missing here?

If electrification of automobile is inevitable, you should maybe make another table that only lists the 'electric car' business of those companies. And do another one for battery storage and solar. I'm sure 100 years ago some similar table was built and Henri Ford business looked very small and irrelevant in the middle of the horse/carriage companies.
 
View attachment 209191
(rough numbers in for Tesla... precision here isn't the point)

This is why I will most likely not change my general short position on TSLA in the near future. When will Tesla Auto ever substantially contribute to the $100B to $1T market cap claims by longs or even the $36B it currently holds? TSLA is currently priced at levels that the company doesn't even have medium term goals for... 1m/yr M3 by 2020 is the last stated goal which doesn't even justify the current position in the list above.

I understand CAGR... but when I look at this... and consider risk of execution combined with how many years out this stock is priced... and in those years the competition will only increase... I just don't get it... Unless everyone expects Tesla to just drop auto and just become Tesla Energy... go ahead and rail me... what am I missing here?
Tesla views auto as part of energy, so auto doesn't get dropped at all. Keep in mind, Tesla has signaled that it will get a piece of mobility in general as well. Once that's done Tesla will both make immediate income from selling cars and a subset of those cars will produce residual cash flow after purchase. Other companies have sort of realized the plan and jumped on the same strategy, but this board considers them far behind.

Also, looking lower than Tesla on your list in struck by several small companies with about half the valuation of tesla and between double and quadruple the sales and profits. Either all growing companies are a bubble or Tesla's outsized chance of success compared to those companies justifies a higher valuation, IMO.
 
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good point... but before Tesla announced a buyout it was priced around $2b and rapidly falling.
I wouldn't read too much into that pricing. Shortly before it was worth 3x that and climbing. The only things that changed were that SCTY decided to slow but not postpone growth in order to manage their financial position more intelligently and issues in Nevada and Arizona with corruption and laws going against them.

SCTYs biggest issue was access to capital markets, everything else was going pretty well other than SG&A. Tesla solves the access to capital part, scty helps solve Tesla's very minor cash flow issues, and in the merger docs the merger is protected to knock millions off of total SG&A. The market has been wrong on SCTY for quite a while, mostly as a result of the market punishing all solar companies.
 
Tesla President: Only $6 per car is spent on advertising [Video]

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Tesla views auto as part of energy, so auto doesn't get dropped at all. Keep in mind, Tesla has signaled that it will get a piece of mobility in general as well. Once that's done Tesla will both make immediate income from selling cars and a subset of those cars will produce residual cash flow after purchase. Other companies have sort of realized the plan and jumped on the same strategy, but this board considers them far behind.

Also, looking lower than Tesla on your list in struck by several small companies with about half the valuation of tesla and between double and quadruple the sales and profits. Either all growing companies are a bubble or Tesla's outsized chance of success compared to those companies justifies a higher valuation, IMO.
I personally think mobility is a long shot... with technical challenges that are being way underestimated... and I also noticed there are a few companies on that list with a greater than 1 P/S... but they seem to have assets that justify it.
 
I wouldn't read too much into that pricing. Shortly before it was worth 3x that and climbing. The only things that changed were that SCTY decided to slow but not postpone growth in order to manage their financial position more intelligently and issues in Nevada and Arizona with corruption and laws going against them.

SCTYs biggest issue was access to capital markets, everything else was going pretty well other than SG&A. Tesla solves the access to capital part, scty helps solve Tesla's very minor cash flow issues, and in the merger docs the merger is protected to knock millions off of total SG&A. The market has been wrong on SCTY for quite a while, mostly as a result of the market punishing all solar companies.
A company with virtually guaranteed future cashflows valued in excess of $2B in profit (over and above the carrying cost of the loans supporting the asset) over the next 20 years is obviously worth more than $2B. TSLA got SCTY for an absolute song. Deal of the decade. When the merger was being considered, I saw through to the underlying brilliance of the move, and predicted that when the dust all settles after the Model 3 launch, buying SCTY when they did will be seen as one of the smartest things TSLA could have done.
 
i won't post another picture to not cloud the board... but it looks like yesterday's bounce coincided with when that uptrend we've been tracking for the last two weeks hit $220 (the last jump point)... and it's bouncing off the uptrend line this morning.

if there's an offering announcement soon... followed by a pin until pricing... followed by this trend stopping... man...
 
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i won't post another picture to not cloud the board... but it looks like yesterday's bounce coincided with when that uptrend we've been tracking for the last two weeks hit $220 (the last jump point)... and it's bouncing off the uptrend line this morning.

if there's an offering announcement soon... followed by a pin until pricing... followed by this trend stopping... man...
I actually kind of want to see that just for the raw clarity of what's really happening it would be.
 
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Out of 1000 senior automotive executives surveyed, 78% believe fuel cells are the future of clean vehicles, 62% think BEVs will fail.

Majority of automotive execs still believe battery-powered cars will fail and fuel cells are the future

I find this to be absolutely mind boggling.
Why?
fuel cells, complex engines needing repairing and parts and service
PLUS
complex fueling infrastructure, overlaid on present gasoline/diesel

VS

simple rotating magnetic field motor fueled with sunlight.
Which saves your jobs?
 
Overall, it is very interesting how Tesla and Panasonic managed to pull this off in 100% stealth mode, without a peep coming from any sources. This strict discipline is very impressive.

Well, gosh. I'm not sure how stealthy that big-assed building they're building at breakneck speed is (ahead of the schedule they told the state of Nevada), but okay if you were looking the other way you might have missed it. I suppose one might have been fooled into thinking they were filling it with runaway Pokémon...because yeah, what else would you put in it? Certainly not battery cell manufacturing equipment for less than 20B. :rolleyes:
 
That sounds about right, thanks. Note both terminals on the top of the cell, consistent with the new architecture of the P100D pack...

Lots of questions this am. Are the P100D packs made with 2170 cells from Osaka? Are the 3 alpha model 3s released last year powered by 2170 cells? Will Panasonic be allowed to sell 2170 cells made in Asia to companies other than Tesla? Once the technical specifications of the 2170 cells are generally known, seems everyone in the electric transportation and energy storage business will want to buy them.
 
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It would have been fine if they had forecast the 6 weeks of slowdown in production. Instead they had to tell us about it after the fact when they missed the number. Credibility is important not just for Wall Street but also when dealing with suppliers. As Tesla keeps missing forecasts their credibility with suppliers suffers.

This is damned if you do, damned if you don't. If Tesla announces it while it's happening, every short jumps on the train - 'Told you Tesla was a scam! Told you they'll be bankrupt by the end of quarter!' etc., etc.... The SP takes a kicking, SA has a banner month in negative Tesla articles, more FUD gets spread than Nutella in a pre-school cafeteria...

Better to keep that kind of stuff to themselves and talk about it (if they have to) after they've fixed the problem. A lot of stuff goes down we never hear about, or hear about years later - like the shoot out at the Mexican border that held up the frunk carpet that some people were complaining about being on their due bill. Sure, that's kind of a funny story in hindsight, but in the moment that can be turned into all sorts of Tesla is doomed stories that Tesla just doesn't need. GM, Ford and all those guys don't ever report what's happening behind the scenes if and until they have to. In fact, they'll go out of their way to hide stuff about their cars that can potentially kill people, whereas Tesla is super proactive.

In terms of credibility with suppliers...please. What about the seat supplier who produced a seat for Tesla that couldn't achieve a 5* rating? What about the supplier who couldn't produce the mechanism for the FWDs? What about the tire supplier who didn't get tires to Tesla on time? What about the chrome supplier that gave Tesla such angst? What about the USB supplier that caused Tesla to buy Frys out of all their stock? What about none of the Tier I or II suppliers getting on board with Tesla in the beginning because the orders were too small or Tesla probably won't survive? What about Elon putting it front and center to ALL suppliers that July 1, 2017 is the deadline date to have their Model 3 parts ready for mass production? That doesn't sound like a Tesla credibility issue with suppliers, but a supplier credibility issue with Tesla.
 
Well, gosh. I'm not sure how stealthy that big-assed building they're building at breakneck speed is (ahead of the schedule they told the state of Nevada), but okay if you were looking the other way you might have missed it. I suppose one might have been fooled into thinking they were filling it with runaway Pokémon...because yeah, what else would you put in it? Certainly not battery cell manufacturing equipment for less than 20B. :rolleyes:

I was talking about what is happening inside that building. There was no advance information about validation/testing of the production lines and no advance information about production launch.
 
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Lots of questions this am. Are the P100D packs made with 2170 cells from Osaka? Are the 3 alpha model 3s released last year powered by 2170 cells? Will Panasonic be allowed to sell 2170 cells made in Asia to companies other than Tesla? Once the technical specifications of the 2170 cells are generally known, seems everyone in the electric transportation and energy storage business will want to buy them.
The P100D packs are using 18650's.
The alpha model 3's are likely using 18650's.
 
We can take this OT and debate the impact severity of various production line changes. My point is that every hardware upgrade of any significance has taken longer than Tesla forecast and slowed production impacting its ability to meet delivery guidance. RHD, D, Next Gen Seats, Facelift, AP2. All of them.

Are you sure that's just not simply the result of Elon deciding it should take half as much time as everyone tells him it will take? And in the end it takes a third less time to complete than they told him it would - so faster than usual, but not as fast as Elon wanted them to go. Doesn't that sound about right from what we know of Elon and how he gets things done?
 
Ok, here is another interpretation of this misalignment in announcements. It is a little "out there", but bear with me.

While Elon has publicly set the target date for M3 production at July 1st, 2017, I always translated this to myself as September(ish), with deliveries starting end of October (long validation for the first few batches, working out quality and production issues... we know the deal, Model X ramp process, except, hopefully, with much less trouble).

Yesterday Tesla said volume cell production started at GF1 for TE and will start for M3 in Q2. Now, once again, I translated that to Elon-time, meaning, second half of June, with enough stockpile of cells for that September production start of M3. But that too was a little odd to me, I mean how much in advance do you need to start spitting out cells. 2-3 months, really?

So what if Panasonic's comment was a little bit of a slip-up? At this point TE cell production is probably a fraction of what M3 cell production will be, so what if by April, Pana was referring to M3 cells?

The implication of that would be huge. If they actually started volumes for cars in April, that could mean they anticipate vehicle production much sooner than September. Dare I say, around the actual target date (for a change)? This would also coincide with recent reports by Fred, that suppliers say Tesla is Hell-bent of getting all ducks in a row by July 1st.

So if they started "pilot" M3 production in July and actually ramping in August, that would give them almost 2 quarters of production. Meaning, we could be looking at the 100k+ M3 numbers this year that Elon was predicting. Hmm...

That's some dangerous thinking right there. Just sayin'.
 
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