2014 Panamera S E-Hybrid vs Model S

[scottf200]

Video: Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid
http://insideevs.com/video-porsche-panamera-s-e-hybrid/

 

[AustinPowers]

Here's your answer.
Quote: Meanwhile, as Tesla's current market cap of nearly $14 billion pretty much assumes that there will never be any real competition ever for the company while BMW, Mercedes and Audi all plan to introduce plug-in hybrid versions of their own largest sedans, I'm willing to sit with my short position and see how this all plays out.
The guy is a short on Tesla and is "hoping" competition will pull down the share price of TSLA.
Good luck mate!

True to some extent, but think of this: at it's current share price, TSLA is valued at over 150 times the expected 2014 income/gains (not sure about the correct term for "Gewinn"). I'd say there is quite some short potential. Remember, Tesla as a company now values at twice the amount of Fiat, an automobile giant selling millions of cars each year. Something is quite wrong with that equation - even if you take into account the EV advantage Tesla undoubtedly has. It is still a really small company, yet valued at an insane amount. Even I (who is very careful when it comes to financial transactions) am seriously contemplating going short on TSLA right now. True, it is a gamble (and crazy if you actually want Tesla to become as great as the share price suggests), but at the current share price, the shortsellers seem to be at an advantage.

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I've spent my life working on and enjoying high performance cars and airplanes. His is a poorly informed opinion. A pure electric vehicle, car, motorcycle, etc. is something that needs to be fully experienced to be understood. The freedom from gas stations, the simplicity and lack of maintenance, the ability to instantly update and change, the shortened supply chain made possible by eliminating the dealer...

What do I have from eliminating the dealer? Normally when some company sells their product without dealers, there is less competition and often higher prices for the consumer. Seems to be the case with Tesla as well. If I want to get a car, say BMW here, I check the listed price (desired options included), have a laugh, then get a bargain of (many times) over 20% off the list price, as there are so many dealers wanting to sell me said car. So e.g. a Model S comparable 5-series comes down from say 60K Euro to under 50K Euro in no time. With a Tesla, that is not possible. The listed price is final, as high as it is. Again, where is the advantage for the customer from eliminating the dealers?

And what keeps nagging at me even more: the "lack of maintenance" argument. That simply isn't true. The maintenance costs for a Model S are really high for a car that is supposed to need almost no maintenance at all. One can't repeat that often enough. If I have to service my ICE car every few years at a few hundred Euro each, how come I have to have the S maintenanced every year (or every 12,500 miles)? Lack of maintenance? Yeah, right.

By the way, I am not saying I like the Panamera Hybrid. It is far too complicated and expensive tech for too little an environmental impact. Which is the case for most plug-in Hybrids in the luxury segment anyway.

 

[SebastianR]

What do I have from eliminating the dealer? Normally when some company sells their product without dealers, there is less competition and often higher prices for the consumer. Seems to be the case with Tesla as well. If I want to get a car, say BMW here, I check the listed price (desired options included), have a laugh, then get a bargain of (many times) over 20% off the list price, as there are so many dealers wanting to sell me said car. So e.g. a Model S comparable 5-series comes down from say 60K Euro to under 50K Euro in no time. With a Tesla, that is not possible. The listed price is final, as high as it is. Again, where is the advantage for the customer from eliminating the dealers?

True competition comes from other car makers having a better deal (one reason expensive brands invest so much into the brand image - so that switching brand has a high emotional transaction cost). In your argument you forget that no dealer ever can sell below his own price. So what you perceive as a good deal is part of the mark-up we wouldn't have if the car was sold directly.

Then the situation in Germany is quite different from the US (I lived in both countries). While I don't particularly like Germany car dealers, I don't think they are nearly as bad a pest as US ones (on average - I'm sure there are examples to prove me wrong).

 

[Mayhemm]

What do I have from eliminating the dealer? Normally when some company sells their product without dealers, there is less competition and often higher prices for the consumer. Seems to be the case with Tesla as well. If I want to get a car, say BMW here, I check the listed price (desired options included), have a laugh, then get a bargain of (many times) over 20% off the list price, as there are so many dealers wanting to sell me said car. So e.g. a Model S comparable 5-series comes down from say 60K Euro to under 50K Euro in no time. With a Tesla, that is not possible. The listed price is final, as high as it is. Again, where is the advantage for the customer from eliminating the dealers?

You're forgetting that the price with a dealer is more than 20% inflated anyway because you have to pay for the dealer and all his expenses. The 20% you "save" is 20% you wouldn't have had to pay in the first place without the dealer as a middleman. If I sell you an apple for $2 but will not negociate on price and the guy across the street sells the same apple for $5 but will deal down to 50% off, which is the better deal in the end? The apple with no discount, or the one for 50% off?

And what keeps nagging at me even more: the "lack of maintenance" argument. That simply isn't true. The maintenance costs for a Model S are really high for a car that is supposed to need almost no maintenance at all. One can't repeat that often enough. If I have to service my ICE car every few years at a few hundred Euro each, how come I have to have the S maintenanced every year (or every 12,500 miles)? Lack of maintenance? Yeah, right.

The argument is technically true. EVs do require much less maintenance than ICEs (because they have less wearing, moving parts). That's not to say said maintenance will be cheaper. Less maintenance does not necessarily equal less money.

Now, I happen to agree that Tesla charges too much for maintenance. However, an EV is not an ICE, so Tesla can charge what they deem to be fair since it is basically their market to win/lose at this point. Gouging customers is not exactly the way to build brand loyalty though. Based on its checklist, their $650 annual service could easily have been offered for half that much.

 

[AustinPowers]

You're forgetting that the price with a dealer is more than 20% inflated anyway because you have to pay for the dealer and all his expenses. The 20% you "save" is 20% you wouldn't have had to pay in the first place without the dealer as a middleman.

I know that, but then that makes the S even more overpriced than it already is. In other words, Tesla had to eliminate the dealers because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to compete at all with cars like A7, E-class, and the like. (At least not over here).

The argument is technically true. EVs do require much less maintenance than ICEs (because they have less wearing, moving parts). That's not to say said maintenance will be cheaper. Less maintenance does not necessarily equal less money.

Now, I happen to agree that Tesla charges too much for maintenance. However, an EV is not an ICE, so Tesla can charge what they deem to be fair since it is basically their market to win/lose at this point. Gouging customers is not exactly the way to build brand loyalty though. Based on its checklist, their $650 annual service could easily have been offered for half that much.

My point exactly. Tesla touts the S as being better (as in "cheaper") to run than a comparable ICE car. But what you save in fuel (which isn't that much here, as electricity is already very expensive and prices are supposed to yet increase drastically in the next few years, thanks to modernizing costs for making the grid ready for large scale adoption of alternative energy) you more than make up for in high maintenance costs each year.
The equation might work better for those who really drive a lot, thus save more gas, yet for the average user Tesla's maintenance model will mean higher costs than if they had an ICE - at least over here. And like you said, building brand loyalty (or even getting people interested in a company almost no one here has ever heard anything about), which should be very high on Tesla's agenda right now, is not exactly done this way.

 

[dsm363]

What do I have from eliminating the dealer? Normally when some company sells their product without dealers, there is less competition and often higher prices for the consumer. Seems to be the case with Tesla as well. If I want to get a car, say BMW here, I check the listed price (desired options included), have a laugh, then get a bargain of (many times) over 20% off the list price, as there are so many dealers wanting to sell me said car. So e.g. a Model S comparable 5-series comes down from say 60K Euro to under 50K Euro in no time. With a Tesla, that is not possible. The listed price is final, as high as it is. Again, where is the advantage for the customer from eliminating the dealers?

The dealers don't provide their services for free so their margin is on top of what Porsche demands in this example. True, if the dealer is willing to sell the car at a loss then there is nothing Tesla can do to compete with that but I doubt many dealerships do that. There are a few other threads here that talk about dealerships but if we don't demand phones, TVs or computers be sold through dealerships (electronics stores) then it makes little sense for cars to be forced to be sold the same way.

The Panamera Hybrid will appeal to some so don't think it is a bad offering by Porsche. If you have a short commute (less than 10 miles) then if should make a big impact on your gas savings but that's not exactly why most buy a performance oriented Porsche anyway.

 

[rage_777]

I know that, but then that makes the S even more overpriced than it already is. In other words, Tesla had to eliminate the dealers because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to compete at all with cars like A7, E-class, and the like. (At least not over here).

I think you are forgetting one thing, Tesla doesn't lose money on the cost of the Model S. If Tesla was a big car company like GM, they could sell the MS and lose money like all the other big car companies but they don't. They have to make money on the cars they sell because they are so small. That's why Mr. Musk says that he is not opposed to going the dealership route later, just not now.


My point exactly. Tesla touts the S as being better (as in "cheaper") to run than a comparable ICE car. But what you save in fuel (which isn't that much here, as electricity is already very expensive and prices are supposed to yet increase drastically in the next few years, thanks to modernizing costs for making the grid ready for large scale adoption of alternative energy) you more than make up for in high maintenance costs each year.
The equation might work better for those who really drive a lot, thus save more gas, yet for the average user Tesla's maintenance model will mean higher costs than if they had an ICE - at least over here. And like you said, building brand loyalty (or even getting people interested in a company almost no one here has ever heard anything about), which should be very high on Tesla's agenda right now, is not exactly done this way.

How many dealerships do you know that will come to your house to pick up your car, or fix your car at your house? You are getting much better service with the money you are paying compared to the service you get at a dealership. I'm not saying that it is a fair price, though.

 

[gregincal]

I know that, but then that makes the S even more overpriced than it already is. In other words, Tesla had to eliminate the dealers because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to compete at all with cars like A7, E-class, and the like. (At least not over here).

That's probably true. Most EVs at this point are far more expensive than the equivalent ICE car, and Tesla has done wonders to make the Model S competitive in price. That said, you aren't choosing a Model S over a Panamera to save money, you should choose it because it's a far superior driving experience. Otherwise just buy a Jetta.

 

[SebastianR]

That said, you aren't choosing a Model S over a Panamera to save money, you should choose it because it's a far superior driving experience. Otherwise just buy a Jetta.

THIS. I find it funny how people compare the Model S to a Toyota Corolla (if you use a diesel model the per mile price may seem similar). My sense is, the Model S is really hard to compare as it does not fit into the nicely established (uniform) car classes.

Look at it this way: it has the performance of a really really fast luxury car and yet many of the gadgets are missing (lane assistant, adaptive cruise control etc.); then it has the space of a van, yet it looks like a regular sedan, it is super cheap to drive but an expensive car, if you plug it in over night, it will be always full and you will never recharge at a charging station ever again (no gas station ever!) and yet it has a range of "only 300 miles".

So my point is: if anyone tries to benchmark price/performance of the Model S against any other ICE car and try to state this as universally true, they are making a fool of yourselves. Price comparison may be correct for individual use cases but certainly not true for all use cases / people.

PS: it is a similar thing with the customer segments buying the Model S: You have speed / performance fanatics, treehuggers, geeks, commuters and "buy American rich guys" who buy the car. So again, what would you compare this car to?

 

[huntjo]

Video: Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid
http://insideevs.com/video-porsche-panamera-s-e-hybrid/

I think this is great. It is basically saying all the things that are great about the drive experience in Model S. it just de-emphasizes that you are limited to only a handful of miles all electric and have to compromise cargo space and overall performance to even get that. When consumers compare the two side by side it makes Model S look like a car from the future.

I love that other companies are providing some "competition" even if a bit underwhelming currently. It will keep pushing Tesla forward and punish any complacency that may have set in!!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I know that, but then that makes the S even more overpriced than it already is. In other words, Tesla had to eliminate the dealers because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to compete at all with cars like A7, E-class, and the like. (At least not over here).

The two keys to remember:
- Tesla has some dealer costs by having stores and the service centers that handle prep and delivery.
- Tesla is a startup and for the Model S had to cover both development costs and the development costs of future cars. On top of that it has had extra startup costs associated with setting up the stores and service centers.

In other words, out of necessity it needs extra gross margin. If Tesla were to slow down the business model they could operate on a lower gross margin. The value would be lower, but that's just one of the outcomes.

I don't think shorting Tesla is necessarily a bad idea but I really think heavy, long-term shorts need to do their research (including driving a 60kWh Model S and preferably a RAV4 EV) because it all hinges on a lead in battery price and charging rate and any idea that high-end plug-in hybrids are the competition is utterly ridiculous.

 

[artsci]

Is this the best that Porsche can do? It's astounding to me that a car manufacturer that's been around as long as Porsche, and one with such a storied history, can't do better with this technology. But I suppose that's the problem. They're so stuck on ICE technology that they can't find a way out of the rut. A wimpy battery is hardly a solution or even an innovation. It's part of the rut.

 

[Smop]

Is this the best that Porsche can do? It's astounding to me that a car manufacturer that's been around as long as Porsche, and one with such a storied history, can't do better with this technology. But I suppose that's the problem. They're so stuck on ICE technology that they can't find a way out of the rut. A wimpy battery is hardly a solution or even an innovation. It's part of the rut.

I think it has been proven that it is much more difficult to engineer a PHEV vs a BEV. The packaging and controls are huge engineering challenges. If the Panamera was made into a pure BEV (like what Mercedes did with the SLS) I think you would see a car that would out-handle and possibly be qucker than a MSP. Maybe the next Panamera will offer a BEV.

 

[Doug_G]

Postings about Dealership Model and Germany were moved to Dealership Model and Germany

 

[arondaniel]

Panamera Hybrid will decimate Tesla sales!

If I've learned anything in my life thus far, it's that more is better than less, in all situations, no exceptions. It is for that reason that I believe cars like the newly re-designed Porsche Panamera Hybrid will decimate Tesla sales.

Why? Simple. Hybrids have electric drivetrains *and* gasoline drivetrains. Tesla only has electric. They cheated me by selling me a car at 80% of the cost of the Panamera hybrid with only 50% of the drivetrain.

The real winning car of the future will employ an "all of the above" strategy, like Obama's energy plan. It will have gasoline AND electric. And Flex Fuel. The Model T was Flex Fuel... why not the Model S? And, to ensure future compatibility, it will have compressed natural gas and hydrogen too. And it should also burn wood for steam in case of a zombie apocalypse.

 

[cfOH]

If I've learned anything in my life thus far, it's that more is better than less, in all situations, no exceptions. It is for that reason that I believe cars like the newly re-designed Porsche Panamera Hybrid will decimate Tesla sales.

Why? Simple. Hybrids have electric drivetrains *and* gasoline drivetrains. Tesla only has electric. They cheated me by selling me a car at 80% of the cost of the Panamera hybrid with only 50% of the drivetrain.

The real winning car of the future will employ an "all of the above" strategy, like Obama's energy plan. It will have gasoline AND electric. And Flex Fuel. The Model T was Flex Fuel... why not the Model S? And, to ensure future compatibility, it will have compressed natural gas and hydrogen too. And it should also burn wood for steam in case of a zombie apocalypse.

Trolling as an art form...ur doing it right. ;-D

 

[moollar]

And it should also burn wood for steam in case of a zombie apocalypse.

Classic. :biggrin:

 

[Mayhemm]

Shouldn't a true apocalypse-ready vehicle also be able to use zombies as fuel? :wink:

 

[Johann Koeber]

If I've learned anything in my life thus far, it's that more is better than less, in all situations, no exceptions. It is for that reason that I believe cars like the newly re-designed Porsche Panamera Hybrid will decimate Tesla sales.

Why? Simple. Hybrids have electric drivetrains *and* gasoline drivetrains. Tesla only has electric. They cheated me by selling me a car at 80% of the cost of the Panamera hybrid with only 50% of the drivetrain.

The real winning car of the future will employ an "all of the above" strategy, like Obama's energy plan. It will have gasoline AND electric. And Flex Fuel. The Model T was Flex Fuel... why not the Model S? And, to ensure future compatibility, it will have compressed natural gas and hydrogen too. And it should also burn wood for steam in case of a zombie apocalypse.

I'm not sure: Are you joking?

 

[bollar]

Shouldn't a true apocalypse-ready vehicle also be able to use zombies as fuel? :wink:

Of course, this has already been covered.

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