100D is here

[ABC2D]

To me its not the cost of the free super charging for my use at all.... I just won't rush to order now like I would have if the free lifetime super charging was included, like I originally did with the 90D.

If you dont value free lifetime supercharging, whay did you order in the first place?

... imminent release of the M3, along with many other PEV vehicles being realistic in the next 5 years, some luxury, there is a very good chance resale values will fall hard compared to where they have been for MS....

That's way too many assumptions and presumptions, at least for my taste. Good chance? Do you know something most dont? I agree there is a chance, but there is also a chance the resale will be standard, or minimal. There is also a chance I get into an accident, or get sick, or Trump becomes a president... oops, to late for that one. I'm not sure what's your age, I'm 46, and waiting 5 years is not something I consider viable.

For some that does not matter, but for me it's a part of my buying decisions.

But, all the variables you just listed have not changed except a new choice between free supercharging with 90D or no free supercharging and 100D - the rest of your variables remain the same. You also say that supercharging is not important to you - why the change of heart?

 

[vgrinshpun]

Of course the battery in the 100D is capable of more, but are the motors in the 100D capable of more? I would think if they were Tesla would have unlocked at least a little of it, and then charged more than $3k for the upgrade from 90D to 100D. (It would essentially be free money for them.) They are already undercharging for the 100D upgrade in the US, and it is very possible that they will raise the price to be closer to what is being charged in the other countries soon. Look they charge $7k for the 10kWh upgrade from the 60 to the 75, why only charge $3k for the 15kWh upgrade from the 90 to the 100? (I know you are going to say I got the kWh numbers backwards, but I don't. From what we have seen that is the actual difference in the packs vs. the advertised difference.)

The rear motor in base versions is rated 285kW/382Hp, the front - 145kW/194Hp. Combined rating is 430kW/576Hp. This combined motor rating of 576Hp is limited in 90D by the maximum battery pack output of ~417Hp. So absolutely, if 100D battery pack output increased to match combined motor rating, there will be additional 159Hp output available in 100D as compared to 90D.

As far as pricing is considered, Tesla cost is less than $190/kWh on the battery pack level. The 90 pack has nominal pack energy of approximately 84.9kWh plus 4kWh brick protection = 88.9kWh. I am not sure where did you get numbers for 100kWh pack, so hopefully you'll provide a link, but assuming that usable capacity plus bricking protection adds up to 99-100kWh, the increment is around 10-11kWh, not 15. So Tesla charges around $300/kWh while the cost (as quoted for the old battery pack architecture) is less than $190/kWh. I have no idea (neither do you) whether Tesla is going to increase this premium it charges for the 100D variant or not, but the numbers as they are right now work, even without considering cost improvements for the 100D pack due to new improved architecture.

 

[AMPd]

Of course the battery in the 100D is capable of more, but are the motors in the 100D capable of more? I would think if they were Tesla would have unlocked at least a little of it, and then charged more than $3k for the upgrade from 90D to 100D. (It would essentially be free money for them.) They are already undercharging for the 100D upgrade in the US, and it is very possible that they will raise the price to be closer to what is being charged in the other countries soon. Look they charge $7k for the 10kWh upgrade from the 60 to the 75, why only charge $3k for the 15kWh upgrade from the 90 to the 100? (I know you are going to say I got the kWh numbers backwards, but I don't. From what we have seen that is the actual difference in the packs vs. the advertised difference.)

That's some interesting math.
If you swap those kWh numbers you'll be closer to the reason why

 

[MP3Mike]

The rear motor in base versions is rated 285kW/382Hp, the front - 145kW/194Hp. Combined rating is 430kW/576Hp. This combined motor rating of 576Hp is limited in 90D by the maximum battery pack output of ~417Hp.

Wrong, the 100D has two small motors, it doesn't have the large performance motor in the rear. That is only on RWD and P cars.

So with two small motors you are limited to a combined HP of 388, which is below what the battery can put out.

 

[vgrinshpun]

@MP3Mike - would like to know what are you disagreeing with? I have provided back-up data for each number in my post. What is it you disagree with? Data?

 

[MP3Mike]

I have no idea (neither do you) whether Tesla is going to increase this premium it charges for the 100D variant or not, but the numbers as they are right now work, even without considering cost improvements for the 100D pack due to new improved architecture.

Then why is Tesla charging twice as much for the 100D upgrade in the non-US countries?

 

[MP3Mike]

@MP3Mike - would like to know what are you disagreeing with? I have provided back-up data for each number in my post. What is it you disagree with? Data?

I did, look at the post right above yours. You provided the evidence right in your own post. It says that the D version has the same small motor front and rear.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Wrong, the 100D has two small motors, it doesn't have the large performance motor in the rear. That is only on RWD and P cars.

So with two small motors you are limited to a combined HP of 388, which is below what the battery can put out.

Agree, 90D does not have performance motor in the rear (375kW) it has base motor which is rated 285kW - the rating I used in my post. The 90D is limited by the battery output of ~417kW, not the output of the motors which you erroneously state is 388Hp.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Then why is Tesla charging twice as much for the 100D upgrade in the non-US countries?

I do not know and neither do you.

 

[MP3Mike]

Agree, 90D does not have performance motor in the rear (375kW) it has base motor which is rated 285kW - the rating I used in my post. The 90D is limited by the battery output of ~417kW, not the output of the motors which you erroneously state is 388Hp.

Wrong again from your own graphic. The non-P D variants have two small motors rated at 145kW:

 

[vgrinshpun]

I did, look at the post right above yours. You provided the evidence right in your own post. It says that the D version has the same small motor front and rear.

Read the evidence I provided one more time. Two small motors were used ONLY on 85D. The Manual says that small motor is "front motor on all dual motor models"

 

[MP3Mike]

Read the evidence I provided one more time. Two small motors were used ONLY on 85D. The Manual says that small motor is "front motor on all dual motor models"

Which is true. And right under that it says "front and rear motor on 85D." That whole spec sheet is only for the 85s, the 90s use exactly the same motors, and the 100s likely do too.

They could have worded it differently and said exactly the same thing. Instead of "front motor on all dual motor models" they could have said "front motor on P85D".

 

[vgrinshpun]

Actually we both were wrong. See snap shot from the latest Manual. The snap shot included in my original post was from the previous version of the Manual.

The rating of each motor used on 90D is 193kW/258Hp, not 145kW/194Hp as you mentioned (that motor was used in 85D only). So combined rating of the two motors in 90D is 386kW/517Hp. So my original point was correct, 90D throughput is limited by the battery, NOT motors and increasing pack output of 100D could provide additional 100Hp throughput as compared to 90D (517Hp-417Hp=100Hp). I was off with the numbers, though.

 

[MP3Mike]

See snap shot from the latest Manual.

But that spec doesn't list any power information for the base small motor. Only the performance version. So that page has a mistake, it either is missing the power numbers for the base version or it shouldn't say "Performance: " in front of the specs.

But I have no way to know which mistake they made since they no longer list HP numbers on their site. (At least that I can find.)

They do still list the lower torque rating for the small base motors which makes me think they left the power numbers off for the base small motor.

 

[FlatSix911]

Here are the current Model S specifications ... the P100D/ 100D need an update
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia

 

[pers1]

From Tesla about the electric motors:

 

[AVRnj]

If you dont value free lifetime supercharging, whay did you order in the first place?


That's way too many assumptions and presumptions, at least for my taste. Good chance? Do you know something most dont? I agree there is a chance, but there is also a chance the resale will be standard, or minimal. There is also a chance I get into an accident, or get sick, or Trump becomes a president... oops, to late for that one. I'm not sure what's your age, I'm 46, and waiting 5 years is not something I consider viable.



But, all the variables you just listed have not changed except a new choice between free supercharging with 90D or no free supercharging and 100D - the rest of your variables remain the same. You also say that supercharging is not important to you - why the change of heart?

I thought I was pretty clear, it was important to me for the resale value. Between the approximate 2k in free supercharging I estimate, plus the say 3k in resale value, seems like a 5k hit to me.

 

[MP3Mike]

Here are the current Model S specifications ... the P100D/ 100D need an update
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia

But those numbers don't appear to be accurate. According to the specs posted the AWD cars only have 500Nm of torque, not 658. And the performance model has 980Nm of torque not 967. So I think the whole thing needs some serious work.

 

[vgrinshpun]

But those numbers don't appear to be accurate. According to the specs posted the AWD cars only have 500Nm of torque, not 658. And the performance model has 980Nm of torque not 967. So I think the whole thing needs some serious work.

Your main point is wrong. 90D can't have combined motor rating of 388Hp as you claim, because it will not be possible for it, being heavier than my P85+ to match it in specified acceleration (4.2s 0-60mph) but having lower throughput. My P85+ has throughput of 417Hp. The reason latest Manual lists only 193kW/258Hp motors is because they are used in 90D. The smaller motors (145kW/194Hp) are used in 75D. Otherwise 90D, being heavier than 75D could not possibly have better 0-60 performance than 75D.

So my original point stands: if Tesla choses, they can bump 100D output by about 100Hp.

 

[drklain]

I thought I was pretty clear, it was important to me for the resale value. Between the approximate 2k in free supercharging I estimate, plus the say 3k in resale value, seems like a 5k hit to me.

You most certainly don't need to defend your decision to us. Any one of the four potential answers (upgrade to 100D, keep 90D, wait and buy a later version or buy something else) could be the right answer for any particular person. I would just suggest to you that I think a far greater impact on resale value will be depreciation than either factor you see as a "hit". Unless you're going to sell the car in the first 12 months, your assumptions for drop in value are likely to be too high. If battery ranges keep going up 5-10% a year, in 2-3 years when a 120 or 150 KWH battery is out there, the 100D (even with free unlimited supercharging if that was an option) would have dropped in value over 50%. If resale value is a major factor for you, buy a CPO where you don't take the new car depreciation hit and you will get a far bigger return....