VIDEO: Fox's Tesla Re-Coil (http://mediamatters.org/)

haha. That's awesome! Thanks for posting.

Video unavailable :-(

Here from across the pond the US fascinates me: how is it possible for a country to be the birthplace of companies like Tesla while at the same time having a major "news" network like Fox?

Fox's point is that government (taxpayer) money should not be used to subsidise private industry. Tesla just got caught in the fray and put in the same catagory as Fisker, and Solyndra.

EdA said:

Video unavailable :-(

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It’s very available to me. But perhaps that’s got something to do with moí being connected from Sweden…

And if I may say:

I LOVE this video! Muhahahahaaa! :biggrin:

Take that Murdoch.

Lloyd said:

Fox's point is that government (taxpayer) money should not be used to subsidise private industry. Tesla just got caught in the fray and put in the same catagory as Fisker, and Solyndra.

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Yeah, but they also called it a loser and lumped it in with the others that failed. Jumping on that whole bandwagon.......

Lloyd said:

Fox's point is that government (taxpayer) money should not be used to subsidise private industry./...

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How is a loan a subsidy?

Let's also ensure nobody forgets about this:


“We must also change how we power our automobiles. We will increase our research in better batteries for hybrid and electric cars … Breakthroughs on this and other new technologies will help us reach another great goal: to replace more than 75 percent of our oil imports from the Middle East by 2025. By applying... (APPLAUSE) By applying the talent and technology of America, this country can dramatically improve our environment, move beyond a petroleum- based economy and make our dependence on Middle Eastern oil a thing of the past.”


- President G.W. Bush, State of the Union Address, January 31, 2006


He would later sign into law the Energy Independence and Security Act on December 19th, 2007, which authorized funding for the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) Loan Program, a $25 billion direct loan program, of which $465 million (1.8%) went to Tesla.

It becomes a subsidy when they can't pay it back..... like Fisker and solyndra.

I would consider $5 billion in tax breaks for oil industry worse than a loan. Oil companies are private as well but for some reason that is a legitimate business deduction and a loan to a 'green' company for 1/20th that amount makes Tesla a loser according to their reporting.

And that is around $5 billion per year, not a one time loan. They never have to pay that back.

dsm363 said:

And that is around $5 billion per year, not a one time loan. They never have to pay that back.

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Agree 100% We should evaluate and eliminate all unecessary subsidies, including assistance to foreign governments.

Sorry OT

dsm363 said:

And that is around $5 billion per year, not a one time loan. They never have to pay that back.

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Nothing wrong with your numbers (they're in ball park), but the oil and gas industry is much, much bigger than any green industry. Tesla got a subsidized loan (below-market government interest rates) that amounted to $20,000 per car for the first 20,000 cars. Oh, they are getting something like that, too, from the ZEV and Green-House Gas credits. Oh, and $7500 off the after-tax price of their cars. That amounts to about half the cost of higher-end Model S.

By contrast, $5 billion a year is drop in bucket compared to the revenues of just a few oil majors. To say nothing of the whole oil and gas industry. As a percentage of sales, it's a small subsidy. I don't favor it mind you. But folks need to keep it in perspective.

Lloyd said:

It becomes a subsidy when they can't pay it back..... like Fisker and solyndra.

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I don't think this is an accurate definition. A loan that goes bad is simply that -- a bad loan (like Fisker and Solyndra). A subsidy is usually an ongoing payment (or more often a tax break) that benefits one particular group or industry.

The fact that Fox News mixed these two concepts when it came to Tesla (and the others) was probably in part a desire to lump them in with the "bailouts" of the big three auto companies.

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Objective1 said:

Nothing wrong with your numbers (they're in ball park), but the oil and gas industry is much, much bigger than any green industry. Tesla got a subsidized loan (below-market government interest rates) that amounted to $20,000 per car for the first 20,000 cars. Oh, they are getting something like that, too, from the ZEV and Green-House Gas credits. Oh, and $7500 off the after-tax price of their cars. That amounts to about half the cost of higher-end Model S.

By contrast, $5 billion a year is drop in bucket compared to the revenues of just a few oil majors. To say nothing of the whole oil and gas industry. As a percentage of sales, it's a small subsidy. I don't favor it mind you. But folks need to keep it in perspective.

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Not sure what a "subsidized loan" is, but it wasn't "below market" rates. The purpose of the program was to provide loans to companies that otherwise couldn't get loans in the private sector of the size they needed to scale their businesses. Tesla is the poster child for exactly what the intention of the ATSV program was supposed to do, which was use loans from the government where they weren't available in the private sector to give new/green energy companies in the US the ability to get themselves going and eventually because standalone concerns. Didn't work with Fisker (obviously), and the mistake made on Fox was to try to lump Tesla in with Fisker. This was probably just ignorance more than malice towards Tesla, although you'd think a "news" organization would try to, you know, get its facts straight.

Lloyd said:

Fox's point is that government (taxpayer) money should not be used to subsidise private industry. Tesla just got caught in the fray and put in the same catagory as Fisker, and Solyndra.

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I am not an expert of economics but in my opinion an innovative automaker like Tesla needed a loan from the government for the big work that has been done on Research and Development. And now we are seeing that thanks to this government support Tesla is having a big success.

Lloyd said:

It becomes a subsidy when they can't pay it back..... like Fisker and solyndra.

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Agree 100%

$5 billion a year might be a drop in the bucket, but I remember a quote from many years ago by Sen. Everett Dirksen, "A billion here, a billion there. Pretty soon it adds up to some real money..."

Man, i wish we could play their responses 2 yrs ago after they change their responses,

Flip flopping like their hero Mitt Romney...

dsm363 said:

I would consider $5 billion in tax breaks for oil industry worse than a loan. Oil companies are private as well but for some reason that is a legitimate business deduction and a loan to a 'green' company for 1/20th that amount makes Tesla a loser according to their reporting.

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I have no issue to see either oil companies or "green" companies get subsidies from our government for legitimate reasons. I do have problems to see groups like Media Matters take things out of context and make a video like this. Media Matters is notoriously a left wing liberal bias group and they are anti-Fox, just take a look at their web site. It is great to see Tesla a successful story, unfortunately there are too many failed Green companies who took funds from our government and they became the talking points of the conservative groups.

Keep in mind that our green industries have to compete with heavily subsidized Chinese companies who will continue to get the support they need from their government until they have crushed our start-ups.