Did Tesla design cars to be able to take a range extender just incase?

[FastLaneJB]

Oh I've got a couple of horror stories when it comes to charging at places which were supposed to have working chargers, but they both happened relatively early on in my EV-owning timeline and you live and learn. I did. I also have plenty of stories I could tell you of almost running out of petrol in my ICE days. It happens but as long as you have a contingency of some sort you get through it.

There are portable DC charge packs around which you might want to look at. A bit like having a 1 gallon petrol can in the boot, but not as smelly.
Or maybe a roof-mounted wind generator to top up as you go?

I've never ran out of fuel and anytime I've got close was because I was being stupid when younger. You know though if you make it to a garage that 99.99% of the time the pumps will be working and they have fuel. If they don't, you likely pulled in on red, still have maybe another 50 miles so plenty of range to get to another fuel station.

I know EV's will get there and you know I will have 2 and no ICE at all soon so I don't need convincing to convert. I am merely saying I accept the benefits outway the limitations and this is one of the limitations no matter which way people swing it. It's a step backwards from what we were used to.

Those batteries are super big ans heavy. Frankly if you wanted aome emergency solutuion a diesel generator would be the far cheaper, lighter and more energy dense option. Assuming it's only for an emergency the climate impact is minimal as you hopefully wouldnt ever use it. Hence alao why i couldn't really justify buying one that I'd hopefully never use.

Would that be a perpetual motion solution you've just thought up there? A wind generator on the roof and then as you drive you can generate the energy back and store into the battery. Add that it'll spin when stopped at lights, in traffic and parked up. Slap a few solar panels on for good measure, maybe never need to charge any other way again

Be a bit of a pain getting into a multistory carpark though with a wind turbine on the roof

 

[FastLaneJB]

If anyone’s range challenge means that they choose not to zip around the NC500 whilst barely stopping then that sounds like a “win” to me!

I did it around Xmas time when Covid was around. Wasn't even sure it would be possible, a few places we'd booked in to stay in cancelled on us and everything was shut.

On the plus side was almost no cars on the road at all, might have set a NC500 lap record

 

[FastLaneJB]

Look at Plugshare.com. They have reliability ratings and comments from drivers. It's pretty easy, even from here in the states, to see what options are available and their reliability. And to also see that Teslas are in the area all the time.

Now that you have talked more, you seem to have pretty bad range anxiety. Plan a trip up into the area as an adventure. Expect the worse, that you may have to spend hours at L2 locations, or even plug into standard wall plugs somewhere. I'm guessing there may be campgrounds in the area, they can be good for charging.
You should be able to top off in Inverness and make it up to Melvich AND BACK to Inverness on a single charge anyway. And there's destination chargers along the way for emergncies.

Look maybe at some point I'll try it. Hours stuck at a L2 sounds like a nightmare and if my wife was with me she'd have me selling one of the EV's to buy an ICE again if that happened.

We aren't in this to suffer in the name of saving the planet, it's pretty obvious the planet is screwed anyway. I do it as I like the way an EV drives, the tech, preheating and how cheap and low hassle it is to run. The fact it helps the planet is a bonus but not why I picked an EV. If it makes travelling too much of a hassle it's not worth it though.

 

[FastLaneJB]

It seems that instead of range anxiety, the worry seems to be more like working high speed charger anxiety.
As EVs get longer range, faster charging with better battery chemistry, the anxiety is not with the cars but with the chargers.

Elon seems to agree, and after taking a hard look at his Supercharger team, decided to bin them all and start over. He knows, that the charging system is the key to the successful adoption of EVs.

They had charging working way better than any other company. They just need to expand quicker to both cover more of the country and also grow sites which are always very busy.

Yes I'm fine with the range if I know there's always somewhere I can plug in within a short distance and like a petrol station it works 99.99% of the time.

There's plenty of pro EV videos in the UK where those people go test all their nearest chargers and there's generally something like a 40 - 60% failure rate on a lot of those smaller installations. It's not good enough.

 

[ewoodrick]

Would that be a perpetual motion solution you've just thought up there? A wind generator on the roof and then as you drive you can generate the energy back and store into the battery. Add that it'll spin when stopped at lights, in traffic and parked up. Slap a few solar panels on for good measure, maybe never need to charge any other way again

Since the wind generator would cause more drag, it's far from perpetual motion. And a car covered with solar panels and tilted up to follow the sun all day, may add 30-40km.

 

[ewoodrick]

They had charging working way better than any other company. They just need to expand quicker to both cover more of the country and also grow sites which are always very busy.

Yes I'm fine with the range if I know there's always somewhere I can plug in within a short distance and like a petrol station it works 99.99% of the time.

There's plenty of pro EV videos in the UK where those people go test all their nearest chargers and there's generally something like a 40 - 60% failure rate on a lot of those smaller installations. It's not good enough.

OMG, stop listening to Internet videos!! How many people show videos of chargers working? Pretty close to 0.

Look at some of the apps, many have driver reports and reliability scores. You can often see that someone charged successfully in the last few days (or unsuccessfully). You don't really need to guess. The reviews should also indicate if there is waiting for the charger.

It seems that you have done a great job of convincing yourself that it isn't possible. Others have indicated that they have done it and that it is easily possible.
Just go try it and stay in range of the last station that you could charge at. Stay safe and see how far you can go.

I remember my first trip in my EV, a Nissan Leaf with 88 miles range. I took off into our version of the highlands 7 years ago, when there really weren't many charging locations. There was a single CHAdeMO/CCS DCFC about 50 miles away. That meant that if it didn't work, my trip was going to be a lot longer. There were a couple of J-1772 L2 chargers, but that would take more time, and then the fallback was finding a standard plug and staying overnight.

The 50kW DCFC worked. It ended up being a quite enjoyable day outing.
That was a DCFC in a municipal parking lot, relatively unreliable and often ICE'd. There were NO OTHER DCFCs anywhere near there, nearest was probably 75 miles away, definitely out of range.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Since the wind generator would cause more drag, it's far from perpetual motion. And a car covered with solar panels and tilted up to follow the sun all day, may add 30-40km.

All I'm hearing is problems and not solutions, this is why you don't work at Tesla.

 

[FastLaneJB]

OMG, stop listening to Internet videos!! How many people show videos of chargers working? Pretty close to 0.

Look at some of the apps, many have driver reports and reliability scores. You can often see that someone charged successfully in the last few days (or unsuccessfully). You don't really need to guess. The reviews should also indicate if there is waiting for the charger.

It seems that you have done a great job of convincing yourself that it isn't possible. Others have indicated that they have done it and that it is easily possible.
Just go try it and stay in range of the last station that you could charge at. Stay safe and see how far you can go.

I remember my first trip in my EV, a Nissan Leaf with 88 miles range. I took off into our version of the highlands 7 years ago, when there really weren't many charging locations. There was a single CHAdeMO/CCS DCFC about 50 miles away. That meant that if it didn't work, my trip was going to be a lot longer. There were a couple of J-1772 L2 chargers, but that would take more time, and then the fallback was finding a standard plug and staying overnight.

The 50kW DCFC worked. It ended up being a quite enjoyable day outing.
That was a DCFC in a municipal parking lot, relatively unreliable and often ICE'd. There were NO OTHER DCFCs anywhere near there, nearest was probably 75 miles away, definitely out of range.

I have never said it's not possible. I've merely said the risk along with the annoyance of rather slow chargers doesn't make me feel like I want to do it. I might at some point but it's not a slam dunk.

Just quick google and one of the first links I come across is an MG driver who got caught out with a broken charger and needed to use a 3 pin charger with a friendly local to top up just enough so he could just about limp to another charger. It should not be like that, in a diesel I can do the whole thing and not even have to refill but there's enough petrol stations regardless that it's just not something to worry about at all, EV's need to get to that point.

 

[ewoodrick]

I have never said it's not possible. I've merely said the risk along with the annoyance of rather slow chargers doesn't make me feel like I want to do it. I might at some point but it's not a slam dunk.

Just quick google and one of the first links I come across is an MG driver who got caught out with a broken charger and needed to use a 3 pin charger with a friendly local to top up just enough so he could just about limp to another charger. It should not be like that, in a diesel I can do the whole thing and not even have to refill but there's enough petrol stations regardless that it's just not something to worry about at all, EV's need to get to that point.

Depending on where you are going, you can get in and out without charging. So you searched and found the bad. Now try PlugShare or the other apps that have been recommended and find the good.

You are really missing the point. It appears, that on just about any route, you have multiple opportunities to charge. So even if one is having issues, just skip to the next one. No big deal. And there's probably no need to fully charge anywhere.

Others have proven it easily possible.

 

[ewoodrick]

Look maybe at some point I'll try it. Hours stuck at a L2 sounds like a nightmare and if my wife was with me she'd have me selling one of the EV's to buy an ICE again if that happened.

Let it be an experience.

It's definitely going to be slightly better than:

https://dailydosedocumentary.com/first-cross-country-road-trip/

 

[FastLaneJB]

Depending on where you are going, you can get in and out without charging. So you searched and found the bad. Now try PlugShare or the other apps that have been recommended and find the good.

You are really missing the point. It appears, that on just about any route, you have multiple opportunities to charge. So even if one is having issues, just skip to the next one. No big deal. And there's probably no need to fully charge anywhere.

Others have proven it easily possible.

I'm not new to EV's, I've got the Plugshare app. I don't need schooling on how to find chargers or plan a trip.

It doesn't change my opinion that I feel this is not convenient and risk free enough for my tastes. The fact you feel otherwise is great but you are not me so I don't get what your point is?

 

[ewoodrick]

I'm not new to EV's, I've got the Plugshare app. I don't need schooling on how to find chargers or plan a trip.

It doesn't change my opinion that I feel this is not convenient and risk free enough for my tastes. The fact you feel otherwise is great but you are not me so I don't get what your point is?

I guess my point is that you have a SEVERE case of range anxiety. Not able to make a trip that is easily possible.

 

[MrBadger]

Would that be a perpetual motion solution you've just thought up there? A wind generator on the roof and then as you drive you can generate the energy back and store into the battery. Add that it'll spin when stopped at lights, in traffic and parked up. Slap a few solar panels on for good measure, maybe never need to charge any other way again

I have a solution if you wanted to cut out the big heavy battery for storage… Even works as a replacement to motor boats. Totally free energy for propulsion. Might even be able to adapt it for flight, although not strictly wind powered.

 

[thax1]

I have a solution if you wanted to cut out the big heavy battery for storage… Even works as a replacement to motor boats. Totally free energy for propulsion. Might even be able to adapt it for flight, although not strictly wind powered.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Right but sales aren't going in the right direction. You've basically got 3 kinds of consumer:

1. Will buy an EV as soon as they can afford one, might already have one.
2. Not yet ready to buy an EV because it does not yet suit them but will be fine doing so when that time comes.
3. Those that do not want an EV and you'd have to force them to buy one.

Customer number 1 might be starting to run out and you need to tap into 2. If the battery tech cannot improve quick enough, a range extender might be the way.

Also Tesla has a lot of competition right now, the Chinese are going to really dent their sales and they are happy to do PHEV's so not limiting their markets to only pure EV's.

RATE of growth is slowing from 100+% a year to maybe 25% a year in some markets (still high in others, but cherry-picked for FUD). Look at diesel sales - tiny percentage now. Hybrid (gateway drug for EVs) growing vs petrol sales.

Hybrids having to cycle their small batteries many times more (10 to 30 times?) means shorter battery life together with an unreliable and maintenance intensive Internal Combustion Engine (keeps dealers happy with service fees).

EV sales will always trend up over time. EVs are superior, nicer, cheaper to run, more tech, better performance. Whereas there are many people who have never experienced an EV or Tesla in particular. Bums in seats sell EVs, few go back to ICE. Surveys that suggest people SOMETIMES buy ICE after EVs have (when I've been able to see the details) are mostly HOUSEHOLD surveys. EV might replace one car, with ICE as backup. This backup ICE might be replaced by another ICE (lease ends) while EV gets most usage (because they're better) or new driver in house has to get a cheaper car - normally ICE.

Surveys touching on Tesla drivers' next car are 90+% on Tesla replacing Tesla. A few want to try other brands of EV. Very few choose ICE.

 

[Midpack]

Lots of those are very slow, single chargers that do not always work. Say each car is going to take 2 hours to charge, if your third in the queue you’ll be there for 6 hours. That’s not going to be a very enjoyable trip.

Seems like using worst case to govern your decision making instead of likely case. And ICE vehicle could break down in the middle of nowhere, “that’s not going to be an enjoyable trip.”

And Tesla did not design their cars to add a range extender. Would be contrary to their stated mission from the start…

 

[FastLaneJB]

RATE of growth is slowing from 100+% a year to maybe 25% a year in some markets (still high in others, but cherry-picked for FUD). Look at diesel sales - tiny percentage now. Hybrid (gateway drug for EVs) growing vs petrol sales.

Hybrids having to cycle their small batteries many times more (10 to 30 times?) means shorter battery life together with an unreliable and maintenance intensive Internal Combustion Engine (keeps dealers happy with service fees).

EV sales will always trend up over time. EVs are superior, nicer, cheaper to run, more tech, better performance. Whereas there are many people who have never experienced an EV or Tesla in particular. Bums in seats sell EVs, few go back to ICE. Surveys that suggest people SOMETIMES buy ICE after EVs have (when I've been able to see the details) are mostly HOUSEHOLD surveys. EV might replace one car, with ICE as backup. This backup ICE might be replaced by another ICE (lease ends) while EV gets most usage (because they're better) or new driver in house has to get a cheaper car - normally ICE.

Surveys touching on Tesla drivers' next car are 90+% on Tesla replacing Tesla. A few want to try other brands of EV. Very few choose ICE.

Right so UK forum here but EV sales are only growing in the UK in fleet sales where they have incentives from the government to buy them. Take that away and add in the issue with residuals and trying to sell them on, they’d buy ICE otherwise.

Private sales of EV’s have dropped as a percentage of new car sales, not increased. That shows a clear view if that trend continues that where incentives are not available, people more overwhelming vote for an ICE or Hybrid.

Think you need to get a view outside of the people that just love EV’s for a wider picture. Remember around 1/3 of this country cannot charge at home so an EV is both more expensive to buy and more expensive to run. When a cars just a tool to most people, that EV drivetrain which is nicer to drive doesn’t really matter.

For people buying new cars, the life time of a hybrid battery probably doesn’t matter because they’ll keep the car for 3 - 4 years until PCP is up and then change it. That’s only a problem for second hand buyers, not new car sales.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Right so UK forum here but EV sales are only growing in the UK in fleet sales where they have incentives from the government to buy them. Take that away and add in the issue with residuals and trying to sell them on, they’d buy ICE otherwise.

Private sales of EV’s have dropped as a percentage of new car sales, not increased. That shows a clear view if that trend continues that where incentives are not available, people more overwhelming vote for an ICE or Hybrid.

Think you need to get a view outside of the people that just love EV’s for a wider picture. Remember around 1/3 of this country cannot charge at home so an EV is both more expensive to buy and more expensive to run. When a cars just a tool to most people, that EV drivetrain which is nicer to drive doesn’t really matter.

For people buying new cars, the life time of a hybrid battery probably doesn’t matter because they’ll keep the car for 3 - 4 years until PCP is up and then change it. That’s only a problem for second hand buyers, not new car sales.

Oh dear

If Hybrids only last a few years, then resale will reflect that. Prius seem to be an exception (anecdata)

UK EV sales growing as % (chart from SMMT).

Used cars - used buyers seem to me to be more conservative, it takes a while for them to overcome the wall of FUD from Daily Hate/Daily Diana etc, even the Guardian - all showing their true disdain for humanity vs clicks/advertising. These used car buyers are NOW starting to catch on, hence demand up 64 to 80+% on previous year.

R Symons

"Demand for electric vehicles is the strongest" (of all used car fuel types)

Overall up by 61% on this time last year (+64% demand, +2% supply). A few weeks ago it was up 80+%

For balance, downside to market health figures is Model Y - secondhand supply up 220+%, which is cancelling out used demand (only up 68% in a year!)
These Model Ys coming off leases are likely to be replaced by NEW Model Ys (my opinion).

Data from Autotrader available to dealers -

(timestamped)

Auction prices seem to be rising -

 

[FastLaneJB]

Oh dear

If Hybrids only last a few years, then resale will reflect that. Prius seem to be an exception (anecdata)

UK EV sales growing as % (chart from SMMT).


View attachment 1045022


Used cars - used buyers seem to me to be more conservative, it takes a while for them to overcome the wall of FUD from Daily Hate/Daily Diana etc, even the Guardian - all showing their true disdain for humanity vs clicks/advertising. These used car buyers are NOW starting to catch on, hence demand up 64 to 80+% on previous year.

R Symons

"Demand for electric vehicles is the strongest" (of all used car fuel types)

Overall up by 61% on this time last year (+64% demand, +2% supply). A few weeks ago it was up 80+%

For balance, downside to market health figures is Model Y - secondhand supply up 220+%, which is cancelling out used demand (only up 68% in a year!)
These Model Ys coming off leases are likely to be replaced by NEW Model Ys (my opinion).

Data from Autotrader available to dealers -

(timestamped)

View attachment 1045025

Auction prices seem to be rising -

View attachment 1045031

Not sure what your getting at here exactly with lots of used car info when we are discussing new car sales. As you can see, private sales as I mentioned of EV's is dropping and not growing. The fact the market rose slightly is down to business sales. They are prepared to buy EV's because of the tax breaks but take those away and I suspect you'd find a fall in sales there also.

I would say though that is pretty hard to get rid of an EV currently as dealers don't want more generally and hence it's just the sheer massive depreciation that keeps second hand EV's moving.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Not sure what your getting at here exactly with lots of used car info when we are discussing new car sales. As you can see, private sales as I mentioned of EV's is dropping and not growing. The fact the market rose slightly is down to business sales. They are prepared to buy EV's because of the tax breaks but take those away and I suspect you'd find a fall in sales there also.

View attachment 1045123

I would say though that is pretty hard to get rid of an EV currently as dealers don't want more generally and hence it's just the sheer massive depreciation that keeps second hand EV's moving.

The first chart from SMMT is NEW sales showing EV percentage growing.

The rest is preemptive because the next trope is normally used demand/residuals.

Next trope after that is normally Elon or oft disproved FUD about carbon (see Auke Hoesksta on X for data suggesting EVs soon make up for any extra emissions in manufacturing). Long form videos of Elon normally helps with misunderstanding. Video of him near tears when he heard that Australians couldn't afford electricity is moving.

New sales, fleet vs private.

Leasing from a company means the company gets the company car tax benefits for EVs. Perhaps they can bundle in a charger or ev charging rates. EVs are generally more expensive, so more likely to be leased than cheaper cars. People have more concerns, so leasing may be seen as a safer option than purchase. Often lease cars are bought in bulk and then matched with customers. Fleet sales.

There is of course the advantages that employers and employees get from salary sacrifice, especially those close to child benefit or tax thresholds.

If you're wanting a cheap ICE, buying might be a better option. Some of the people I know that buy ICE buy with cash or source the loan themselves. Hence why private usage of EVs might be skewed to fleet figures and ICE to private.

Most top selling ICE cars are cheaper and smaller, hence easier to buy with cash or personal loans (which i believe might be harder to get or more expensive above £25,000).

The FUD regarding fleet vs private is just cherry picking.

We've seen years of nonsense cherry picking regarding ship arrivals, deliveries, taxes and subsidies in different markets.

It's as dull and repetitive as it is wrong

Other info shows EV demand is increasing (back to SMMT market stats).