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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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Easy to calculate that even @5,000 M3 / week they won‘t break even.

Oh my..... So many shorts are under water because of the Tesla can't make a profit hype. You jumped on that ship?! If you haven't noticed, from the post above mine, the investors do not care about profits at the moment while the company is growing. They are in it for the long haul not the short run.

Now if you are short because the MCU's seem to always have an issue and no bull will accept that I can understand your reasoning. I mean what's going to happen if the Model 3 MCUs start failing like the pre-2016 Model S MCUs. Plus now my less than a year old MCU on my Model S rebooted itself while I was driving last week. How does that work on a Model 3? These are the questions that I am curious to see play out because they will. I am still staying long on Tesla because I think they will find a solution.

A conversation better to move over to the General thread.
 
"I see them earning around 500-600 mil per quarter at 5000 per week. I’m guessing you think they need close to 10k per week to be cash flow positive?"

Nope. Even if they earned 8,000 per car with M3 (which I think is already quite optimistic) this would bring in about half a bn per quarter. And that won‘t cover their losses. And the SG&A costs, the capex and the interet expense are climbing further.
 
Once the Tesla preowners are through and Tesla starts dealing with first time Tesla buyers the climate will change.

People will realise that they ordered cars but got PCs ("str-alt-del")...

Hard to find a 200,000 / yearly car market for 50,000 $ cars and this won‘t get easier with the current quality of cars and service...

Yeah, you don‘t care and you are in for the long run. Chapter 11 is sooner than your long run.
 
Yes but Tesla needs to be able to operate when investor money dries up. As long as it is not profitable, it's not self sufficient. And I don't like being dependent on external sources.
When a recession hits, and that investors prefer to keep money to themselves, it's getting tough.
You won't care when the stock price is 2700 and the company is still growing at 50% YoY. I'm selling as soon as this company starts to make a profit. Because that will mean they are done growing.
 
"I see them earning around 500-600 mil per quarter at 5000 per week. I’m guessing you think they need close to 10k per week to be cash flow positive?"

Nope. Even if they earned 8,000 per car with M3 (which I think is already quite optimistic) this would bring in about half a bn per quarter. And that won‘t cover their losses. And the SG&A costs, the capex and the interet expense are climbing further.
If you think at $45K ASP Tesla can't make $8K profit (17.8%), then that's the crux of disagreement between you and us longs. I don't think you've contributed any new fact here. Only thing I can see is that you're working off a different profitability assumption on the M3. And I think you're wrong. Here are some scenarios. Tesla can use M3 profit to cover their current worst quarterly loss (Q4'17) of $600M if they achieve >20% GM or 10k/wk production rate. If they achieve both, watch out!

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Once the Tesla preowners are through and Tesla starts dealing with first time Tesla buyers the climate will change.

People will realise that they ordered cars but got PCs ("str-alt-del")...

Hard to find a 200,000 / yearly car market for 50,000 $ cars and this won‘t get easier with the current quality of cars and service...

Yeah, you don‘t care and you are in for the long run. Chapter 11 is sooner than your long run.
See my reply above. You don't need to wait for ch 11, we'll see Tesla's M3 margin sooner than still.

Edit, just to make my point more clear, you're shorting because you're betting on Tesla going ch 11 before they achieve either 10k/wk M3 production or 25% gross margin. Sorry no, not seeing that happening.
 
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If you think at $45K ASP Tesla can't make $8K profit (17.8%), then that's the crux of disagreement between you and us longs. I don't think you've contributed any new fact here. Only thing I can see is that you're working off a different profitability assumption on the M3. And I think you're wrong. Here are some scenarios. Tesla can use M3 profit to cover their current worst quarterly loss (Q4'17) of $600M if they achieve >20% GM or 10k/wk production rate. If they achieve both, watch out!

View attachment 287372

Nice way to counter the FUD that our new member is trying to bring to this forum. I hope Teslie will respond with some solid reasoning as well, instead of bringing more FUD to the table.
 
"I see them earning around 500-600 mil per quarter at 5000 per week. I’m guessing you think they need close to 10k per week to be cash flow positive?"

Nope. Even if they earned 8,000 per car with M3 (which I think is already quite optimistic) this would bring in about half a bn per quarter. And that won‘t cover their losses. And the SG&A costs, the capex and the interet expense are climbing further.


There are some fixed expenses in that $600 million loss that will be absorbed inside the 5k M3 per week before the calculation of the $8k profit margin. So if you just calculate a straight $8k profit margin and compare to the loss prior quarter, your double counting some fixed expenses that will flow through M3 production costs. Reality is that 5k per week is probably about break-even if the profit margin is only $8k per.
 
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"I see them earning around 500-600 mil per quarter at 5000 per week. I’m guessing you think they need close to 10k per week to be cash flow positive?"

Nope. Even if they earned 8,000 per car with M3 (which I think is already quite optimistic) this would bring in about half a bn per quarter. And that won‘t cover their losses. And the SG&A costs, the capex and the interet expense are climbing further.

So, you are saying if Tesla, which had a 2.2 Billion dollar loss in 2017 when it bought and installed an entirely new vehicle production line, expanded the Supercharger network and gallery locations, installed the largest battery system on the planet, developed the Semi&Roadster, and expanded the plant with two new automated storage towers.
You're saying, if they added another 2 billion in profit from sales of Model 3 (using the same plant as S and X, thus increasing their GM), they still cannot be profitable (if they so chose instead of further expansion)?

Please expound upon what these losses are that prevent net profit. Are you thinking they will spend even more on R&D than 2017's 1.4 Billion amount?
 
You won't care when the stock price is 2700 and the company is still growing at 50% YoY. I'm selling as soon as this company starts to make a profit. Because that will mean they are done growing.

I agree that I personally won't care, but let's put it this way :
If Tesla needs 10B to achieve those 50% growth a given year, and that a recession hits, and no one wants to spend any money because they're afraid to lose their job, so the institutional investors money dries up, they stop investing...Tesla won't get those 10B. They won't achieve 50% growth this given year.
 
I agree that I personally won't care, but let's put it this way :
If Tesla needs 10B to achieve those 50% growth a given year, and that a recession hits, and no one wants to spend any money because they're afraid to lose their job, so the institutional investors money dries up, they stop investing...Tesla won't get those 10B. They won't achieve 50% growth this given year.

I disagree. In a vacuum, speaking about random company A, I would agree. But what we are actually talking about is a company that sells products that will save people money and are vastly better then the competition. In a recession, not everyone stops spending money. The people who spend money will do so on the best products. Did Apple grow in 2007-8-9? Honest question as I have no idea.

Tesla is not invulnerable, they are actually in a very precarious position. Having trouble ramping production, tax credits evaporating and debt piling up while the president talks about tariffs. I honestly don't know why you more liberal folks aren't putting all your money under your mattress if you really believe the Russia collision and trade war stuff.

I personal think the whole tariff thing is a negotiating ploy to get more fair trade including the issues Elon complained about on Twitter and European auto import duties on American cars. I think recession is 2 years out at the earliest. I expect it to be mild, as we still havent even recovered from the last one yet due to the massive numbers of people still out of the work force.

That 2 years is critical for Tesla. They MUST be able to satisfy demand. It's going to be very hard and maybe impossible, but I think they will grow over 50% a year on average, even though a recession. Don't forget, a recession isn't going to help Tesla's competitors make competitive vehicles. They will corner the market on $12,000 cars for sure. But Tesla will dominate the $40k+ market. Companies looking to save money will look to the semi and solar. Utilities as well. Consumers who but EVs as well. Tesla has the solutions, not the legacy issues.

Just look no further then Tesla's own timelines for these products to come to market. All in my opinion before any recession and cheap money drying up. Take the pickup for example. The capex for the pickup is not due until the machines are installed and confirmed to be working. To me it's a race to the pickup, to beat the recession. But that's the best case, not the worst. The worst case, Tesla pushes out the pickup and focused on S3XY, Semi and R2. Revisit the pickup in 2021 when the monetary stimulus kicks in.

In short, recession don't hurt companies with great products and massive demand. They hurt the old fashion industries. Gm and Ford barely made it through the last one. Chrysler really didn't. Hell gm shouldn't have.

Same goes with space x. If launch budgets get cut, stuff still needs to get to space. Space x will thrive in that environment.
 
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Anyone who thinks pushing 2500/w it's not a big deal is drinking too much koolaid. It's a bonefied catastrophy after being pushed twice. What's worse is that I think the case can be made that there hadn't been any improvement in production speed this quarter. It's less about missing 2500 and more about the lack of real tangible improvements. To me 2000+ would be acceptable as it would confirm real improvements. Less is bad. Very bad. Short term. Long term, I don't care much. They will get there and there are small benefits to actually being late. Like fed tax credits.

Short term, it's a great buying opportunity.
But remember, the stock is already going down quite a bit right now for a reason. The market is anticipating a big miss on guidance.
 
"Short term, it's a great buying opportunity."

I dare to disagree. Tesla is the short opportunity of the decade...

And I am short.
If you look at the stock's trading pattern since last June, it's actually both. Plenty of gains to be had on both sides. When it's down a bunch, historically that has been the time to be long not short. When it's up, vice versa. The rewards have gone to the contrarian.
 
I honestly don't know why you more liberal folks aren't putting all your money under your mattress if you really believe the Russia collision and trade war stuff.
I agree with most of what you say except when you have to take a personal jab at us liberal folks. Just tit for tat, maybe us liberal folks care more about just the money and we want to see a company like Tesla survive and save the world? or maybe I should assume that you conservative folks care only about money and don't care about the rest of the world?
 
But remember, the stock is already going down quite a bit right now for a reason. The market is anticipating a big miss on guidance.

Or IMHO, the shorts are trying to make it look like the “insiders” are anticipating a miss, or a failed pay package, or ... etc/etc.

The shorts who know how to read the charts probably understand that manipulating it to look a certain way, can and will create their desired outcomes (until it doesn’t).

Recall short % has been greater than 60% pretty much all week.
 
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Once the Tesla preowners are through and Tesla starts dealing with first time Tesla buyers the climate will change.

People will realise that they ordered cars but got PCs ("str-alt-del")...

Hard to find a 200,000 / yearly car market for 50,000 $ cars and this won‘t get easier with the current quality of cars and service...

Yeah, you don‘t care and you are in for the long run. Chapter 11 is sooner than your long run.

Here's the stock movement over the last 10 months. Which side do you want to be on? Tell me how much we are up or down and I will tell you which side I want to be on. I don't short TSLA though. I'm crazy but not THAT crazy. We are currently down 8.1% from the recent climb. How much more will it drop until it goes up again?
Screen Shot 2018-03-16 at 10.22.52 PM.png
 
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We have already seen $319 on this dip. If we do drop to $310 or below, I would be inclined to apply full leverage, anticipating a climb of at least 9% and possibly a lot more within several weeks. I do not see a need to focus on LEAPs at such a level, though they do offer more safety. ATM May and June calls are what I will probably focus on if we do see that level.
If pattern changes, and we continue drop, or continue consolidating for couple of months, your position would be decimated. Please think what is the worst case scenario you want to endure...
This comment is coming from my own experience. Because patterns eventually change. And while I believe this one will resolve on the upside, a big, long headfake downwards would not be out of character for markets...
 
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