Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Milton will be doing jail-time, IMO.
Things run a tad differently on Wall St. Remember that the only person to go to jail after the 2009 cra/sh was Martha Stewart.

GM's setting up EVs to fail again. "Oh we tried, but look!" If I were Michigan, I'd be 'lawyering up', but not for ol' Trev. :p

f781054d09b2c8e1624acc14c102fdd3.jpeg


Cheers!
 
I don't have a specific response, but if there's any company that thinks through everything in their technology, it's Tesla. Absolutely zero concern that they're not aware of any potential issues/drawbacks with their new battery tech

It wasn't a comment of "doubt". It was a comment of "wonder how they solved this".

I've torn apart and rebuilt 2 Model S's. I love to know how things work, that is all.

EDIT - also, Tesla is not perfect. The overheating issues on the 100 kwh packs with Ludicrous made the question very valid.
 
They can't develop the tech to implement OTA updates...imagine selling 100,000 ID3's and having to update the software manually?

"Hi...i need to schedule a software update please?"
"Sure...we can fit you in in about 8 months"

So, I’d imagine from a business standpoint they just simply won’t do many software updates for these cars, if and until they can do them OTA. How many software updates per year do current non-Tesla’s get? I’ve honestly no idea, my current and last ICE vehicle has crank windows so you know it doesn’t have anything to be software updated.

How many OTAs has Tesla had this year alone? I’ve lost count. There’s no way VW will have a fraction of that for their current ID cars.
 
TSLA down and NKLA up. What a world.


Agreed but surely Elon can say something very easy to understand like "this means our packs will be X% lighter, X% cheaper, and X% more dense. That means that once we fully ramp our lines we can sell a Model 3 Performance for 40k and maintain our margin."

You're operating in a logistics vacuum. There is exactly 0.0000% chance that Tesla replaces the Panasonic 2170 / GF1 supply chain with roadrunner cells.

None.

Panasonic has a 3 yr contract with Tesla that specifies price and volume of deliveries. Even a global pandemic could not stop that steamroller.

Newer factories such as Berlin and Austin will obtain new bty supplies, likely derviatives based on the industrial learning obtained partly through "Roadrunner", but those are STILL not replacing Fremont's supply of 2170's. Those will remain through Panasonic/GF1 even though they will see steady improvements (as Panasonic announced for Sep 2020).

Model S and X at Fremont are the obvious and ripe-for-updating products, since their current bty 18650 cells still come from Japan, and the Fremont Kato Rd project appears to be sized correctly to provide enough cells for the entire model lineup of S/X/R2 (not just the Plaid versions, but ~80K/yr).

Tesla HAS to do it this way to reduce technological risk. NO ONE has ever built a Roadrunner cell, pack, car, or bty factory. You DO NOT start with your bread'n'butter product lineup, that's what pays the bills. Plaid S/X however, with their healthy markups, are the ideal way to buy time needed to gain the inevitable hard-won experience while not losing money.

As the technology improves, it will be rolled out to more mainstream products, and likely parts of it shared with Tesla's partners such as CATL in China, who have been working with Tesla for over a year on a 'cell-to-pack' LFP solution. This seems to be the MiC Model 3 LFP (for export?), but even that project is still likely still not shipping until 2021Q1.

It takes time.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
So, I’d imagine from a business standpoint they just simply won’t do many software updates for these cars, if and until they can do them OTA. How many software updates per year do current non-Tesla’s get? I’ve honestly no idea, my current and last ICE vehicle has crank windows so you know it doesn’t have anything to be software updated.

How many OTAs has Tesla had this year alone? I’ve lost count. There’s no way VW will have a fraction of that for their current ID cars.
Good point...but we all know how buggy initial software writes are and i can't imagine VW having the 'best ' Software engineers :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: wipster
I would be veeeery surprised if it closed above 500 by Friday by any significant amount. It would have to be some sort of kick start, like a leaked email, or a report of a 600 mile model 3 being tested, or something.
600 mile model 3 - That is old technology and has already been tested and developed in 2019 :) :)

upload_2020-9-16_8-43-45.png


 
Good point...but we all know how buggy initial software writes are and i can't imagine VW having the 'best ' Software engineers :)

It is also not in VW's interest to do updates over the air. Requiring a trip to a dealership service center to get updates is in their interests to try and make more money in service.

Tesla has incentive to do the opposite and keep customers out of the service center.
 
Has anyone voiced concerns about the new cell size and pack cooling?

With a pack full of these we are seeing all the quotes on decrease in number of cells needed, improved performance, etc. but no one is talking about the ability to cool them due to the decrease in surface area relative to the volume. And pack cooling is dependent upon total surface area of the cells in the pack.

I mention this because, in the past, cooling has hit upper limits (number of times you can launch a P100DL before it goes to limp mode, number of times around a track in a P3D before it reduces power due to heat).


Just curious about everyone's thoughts on that. Otherwise, I'm excited by the advances that come with this.

If the sales are indeed this new bigger form factor, they will leverage one of the new Tesla patents for making the cell more quotable. That has some thing probably to do with one of the patterns related to the tab on the top of the sale. That will be probably very different in these cells if the cells are indeed this new bigger form factor, they will leverage one of the new Tesla patents for making the sell more quotable. That has something probably to do with one of the patents related to the tab on the top of the sale. That will be probably very different in these bigger cells and will allow for uniform cooling across the top of the cell.
 
It is also not in VW's interest to do updates over the air. Requiring a trip to a dealership service center to get updates is in their interests to try and make more money in service.

Yes, it really is in their interest. VW has to pay the dealers to install the updates. So it costs them money. It is in the dealers interest to not have OTA updates, as it gets VW to pay them for clicking a button on their laptop. VW makes no money from a service trip for a software update.
 
Model S and X at Fremont are the obvious and ripe-for-updating products, since their current bty 18650 cells still come from Japan, and the Fremont Kato Rd project appears to be sized correctly to provide enough cells for the entire model lineup of S/X/R2 (not just the Plaid versions, but ~80K/yr).

Tesla HAS to do it this way to reduce technological risk. NO ONE has ever built a Roadrunner cell, pack, car, or bty factory. You DO NOT start with your bread'n'butter product lineup, that's what pays the bills. Plaid S/X however, with their healthy markups, are the ideal way to buy time needed to gain the inevitable hard-won experience while not losing money.

Agree with all points, my only concern is if Tesla does announce something somewhat groundbreaking with the potential to improve COST and only drop it into S&X, won't people be expecting it in the 3/Y eventually? Thus expecting a price drop or much greater range / $ in the near future? Seems osbourne-effect-y to not have some part of technology in their flagship vehicle "today!" (when they announce on Tuesday). Thoughts?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dancing Lemur
Agree with all points, my only concern is if Tesla does announce something somewhat groundbreaking with the potential to improve COST and only drop it into S&X, won't people be expecting it in the 3/Y eventually? Thus expecting a price drop or much greater range / $ in the near future? Seems osbourne-effect-y to not have some part of technology in their flagship vehicle "today!" (when they announce on Tuesday). Thoughts?

Yes. It depends on the magnitude of the step change.

See also Elon's Twitter post: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1305977917843873799

This would be "SALES"
 
So, I’d imagine from a business standpoint they just simply won’t do many software updates for these cars, if and until they can do them OTA. How many software updates per year do current non-Tesla’s get? I’ve honestly no idea, my current and last ICE vehicle has crank windows so you know it doesn’t have anything to be software updated.

How many OTAs has Tesla had this year alone? I’ve lost count. There’s no way VW will have a fraction of that for their current ID cars.
I believe there are a handful of luxury cars that have paid software updates. I've never owned a car that had that option though and don't know anyone else who has either.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Krugerrand
I maintain that the general market doesnt have a grasp on the technical significance of a bigger cell.

Wall Street analysts know a lot about batteries. They are surprisingly sophisticated:

Smaller cells = more advanced (AKA "AAA" cells or super high-tech button cells
Bigger cells = less advanced (AKA "D" cells) very clunky!

If Tesla wants the clueless Wall Street analysts to understand why a bigger cell size might be desirable, they will have to use new terminology. From now on "cells" shall be known as "busts". Because even the dumbest Wall Street analyst can understand why "DD" busts are more desirable than "AAA" busts!

This will spark a new round of enthusiastic "strong buy" ratings, and TSLA will become a Wall Street legend. ;)
 
If the market could just stay sideways for the next couple of days, I think we could end the week at $480-500. TSLA is still showing good strength, but I don’t know what to make of the macros. The “tech recovery” is stalling.

I’m encouraged to see all the discussion around competition here. Yes, Tesla has technical, brand, and business model advantages and will maintain a lead for the foreseeable, BUT you also see how the company’s challenge is no longer “how do we convince people to buy EVs”, but “how do we convince people to buy OUR EVs over the competitors’”. We’re crossing the point where the inevitability of a primarily electric future is actually sinking into the dinosaur businesses and even the general populace.

A key point of the Mission has been advanced tremendously because there is now an EV market, and not just cars vs Teslas. Humanity may a future, yet...

I think you’re several years premature on that concern of ‘how do we get people to buy our EVs —‘

Same way as Tesla gets people to buy Teslas now; make a compelling product that’s fun, that improves via firmware updates, that gives you bang for your buck, that is part of a whole home ecosystem, and that is reportedly going to become an appreciating asset.

Really, nobody else stands a chance as long as Tesla continues to innovate at breakneck speed.

Sit down and think about it. Take VW as an example. They have decades and decades of history, experience, brand awareness and loyalty, country and government support etc.. even after actively trying to kill their own people. They build the ID.3, arguably a car that has European taste written all over it and they can’t even get the software to work.

Just what do you think happens when the German design team of Tesla designs a European specific car? OMG, I can’t laugh any harder.

People keep grasping at OEM straws. GM announcing this or that partnership or technology. VW announcing getting serious about this or that EV development. Ford electrifying their old, tired lines and a pickup that can pull a train. :rolleyes: They’re all over. Mom says so. :p
 
Last edited: