Model X has single 72A charger

[ohmman]

Yeah, I saw that. With all due respect to the OP, I don't trust his anonymous source inside Tesla and we are all going to speculate wildly until Tuesday night, so I decided to speculate based on currently available hardware.

No offense taken. :smile: And I was told that my existing HPWC would work perfectly well.

I have been wanting to remind people that, despite the seeming accuracy of my source's information on the charger, the reasoning behind it may be inaccurate. So space may not be the driving factor. My source is friendly with the beta team, and that's the purported source of the data. Still, we've all played the "telephone" game as kids, and you know how things get distorted.

 

[mknox]

I have been wanting to remind people that, despite the seeming accuracy of my source's information on the charger, the reasoning behind it may be inaccurate. So space may not be the driving factor. My source is friendly with the beta team, and that's the purported source of the data. Still, we've all played the "telephone" game as kids, and you know how things get distorted.

For quite some time, I was of the opinion that as, over time, BEVs got bigger batteries and corresponding longer range, on-board Level 2 chargers would also get bigger. It was for this reason that I installed 2-80 amp J1772 stations at my office last year in the interest of "future-proofing". At a very economical price point, especially compared to Level 3, my 80 amp chargers can deliver about a 10% boost to my SOC every 1/2 hour.

I'm starting to have my doubts now. It seems that there might be more reliance on Level 3 (Supercharger, CHAdeMO etc.) for "fast charging", leaving Level 2 to languish at the 30 amp (or so) level for the most part, and delegate it to "destination" or overnight charging. Even a very large percentage of Tesla "destination" HPWCs seem to be going in configured for 40 amps or less.

The problem with all of this is that Level 3 infrastructure is very expensive, and I don't think anyone has been able to make a good business case for it, outside of Tesla.

 

[FlasherZ]

I've changed my view on this since 3 years ago, as I noted up-thread. The need for me to turn around and do the 80A charging has basically gone away with superchargers and a higher density of lower-current chargers. Would I like to get a higher-current charging capability to charge? Sure. But given my usage patterns I would happily trade 20A for a higher reliability factor and lower cost (and I guess more room).

 

[patrick42h]

No offense taken. :smile: And I was told that my existing HPWC would work perfectly well.

I have been wanting to remind people that, despite the seeming accuracy of my source's information on the charger, the reasoning behind it may be inaccurate. So space may not be the driving factor. My source is friendly with the beta team, and that's the purported source of the data. Still, we've all played the "telephone" game as kids, and you know how things get distorted.

I got a little defensive in my last post. I apologize for that.

If they can't fit two 10-kW chargers in the Model X, a single 15-kW charger would certainly be welcome to people ordering, whether they have a HPWC at home or not. High-power L2 charging isn't one of those things that you think you will need until you need it.

I wonder if Tesla mass-producing a 15-kW charger would simplify Supercharger installations. As I understand it, they essentially use multiple 10-kW chargers from the Model S.

 

[Paul Carter]

I've changed my view on this since 3 years ago, as I noted up-thread. The need for me to turn around and do the 80A charging has basically gone away with superchargers and a higher density of lower-current chargers. Would I like to get a higher-current charging capability to charge? Sure. But given my usage patterns I would happily trade 20A for a higher reliability factor and lower cost (and I guess more room).

I have dual chargers on my S and its been very useful. Doing quick top ups in the destination area as opposed to waiting longer at the SC surely has been great. Still, using 60amps on a HPWC is still way better than most public charging.

Also, I can probably upgrade my existing 14-50 outlet to take advantage. Doing the 100amp HPWC wouldn't fly without costly panel/service upgrades, but thankfully I had my 14-50 wired as 'future-proof'.

 

[Oba]

Interesting.

I'm still not understanding the logic on spending more to design and build a 60A charger for the car when 60A charging opportunities are virtually non-existent - but maybe if the Superchargers are driving the development instead the cost difference for hardware in the car is minimal, especially if it means they only have to build/spare one part number instead of two or three

I think you answered your own question. One part number charger, that can handle single phase at 60-80 amps (15kW - 20kW) that can also handle three phase can now be used in cars all over the world, AND would be able to power a future 180kW - 240kW Supercharger with the same 12 modules as the current one.

At sites with 6-8 stalls (3 - 4 actual Superchargers), one Supercharger could be replaced with this newer 180-240kW setup without changing the transformer (the other chargers would be slightly limited if all were running at the same time).

 

[Oba]

J1772's SAE max rating is 70 amps. The hand full manufactured/rated that high are more rare than one might ever imagine.
.

No, that's not correct. It is definitely 6 amps up to 80 amps.

- - - Updated - - -

... there's no way to tell a car that less than 6A continuous or more than 80A continuous are available with J1772 compliant signaling.

I suppose Tesla could use the "go digital" duty cycle and then use the existing Supercharger protocols to negotiate with a high power HPWC, but that's completely different from how the system works now and would require much more sophisticated electronics on the HPWC end than they currently have (and a firmware update to the car to teach it how to communicate with a high power AC EVSE, but that's something Tesla can do easily.)
Walter

Well done. Yes, I suspect exactly as you suggest. Over 80 amps is done digitally, which is simple to provide with the current J1772 signaling.

They could also make ALL future UMC / HPWC a digital (CAN) messaging system at ALL amperage requests, so that "regular" cars can't use the Tesla products, but all Tesla cars can still use J1772 / Type 1 / 2 around the world.

 

[Saghost]

They could also make ALL future UMC / HPWC a digital (CAN) messaging system at ALL amperage requests, so that "regular" cars can't use the Tesla products, but all Tesla cars can still use J1772 / Type 1 / 2 around the world.

In theory they could, but I'm not seeing Tesla doing that - remember, the company's stated goal is to accelerate electric/sustainable transportation, not to own the market.

If anything, they might do the opposite - provide reverse J1772 adaptors to sites that have HPWCs so that non-Teslas can be easily plugged in to them if folks ask the front desk at the location.
Walter

- - - Updated - - -

J1772's SAE max rating is 70 amps. The hand full manufactured/rated that high are more rare than one might ever imagine.
.

I don't know how common they are in the wild, but 80A units are fully standard compliant and sold by several vendors I can think of - both Tesla (the current HPWC is a standard 80A J1772 EVSE except for the different handle/plug) and Clipper Creek sell them, just off the top of my head.
Walter

 

[hill]

J1772's SAE max rating is 70 amps. The hand full manufactured/rated that high are more rare than one might ever imagine.
.

ClipperCreek 80 amp units are very common in my neck of the woods. I use one daily at 80 amps. They are distributed in Canada by Sun Country Highway.

oops! my bad .... should have said, iirc, but my recollections aren't what they used to be [emoji53] ~
and thanks for the Clipper Creek link too. Considering that level of power, it's surprising their cable doesn't look a lot thicker. Even pushing that level of power through #3 copper wire has got to create a good amount of heat.
.

 

[hcsharp]

oops! my bad .... should have said, iirc, but my recollections aren't what they used to be [emoji53] ~
and thanks for the Clipper Creek link too. Considering that level of power, it's surprising their cable doesn't look a lot thicker. Even pushing that level of power through #3 copper wire has got to create a good amount of heat.
.

No heat build-up in Clipper Creek's cables. Historically they used #4 awg stranded copper in the cord to the 80A connectors. Since it's UL EVE cable they could have easily (and legally) used #6awg wires, which they might be doing now. The cable never heats up noticeably unless it's in the sun. Compare this to Tesla's HPWC that uses lower capacity wires and always gets warm when charging at 80A.

 

[FlasherZ]

No heat build-up in Clipper Creek's cables. Historically they used #4 awg stranded copper in the cord to the 80A connectors. Since it's UL EVE cable they could have easily (and legally) used #6awg wires, which they might be doing now. The cable never heats up noticeably unless it's in the sun. Compare this to Tesla's HPWC that uses lower capacity wires and always gets warm when charging at 80A.

Tesla's HPWC uses #6 fine-stranded EV cable (insulation rating 105 degC). #4 does produce less heat, but it does indeed produce heat. 25 ft of #4 cable will dissipate 80W across its length @ 80A, while 25 ft of #6 cable will dissipate 126W across its length. P=I^2*R; R is .012425 ohm for 50 ft (2 conductors, 25 ft ea.) #4, .019755 ohm for 50 ft #6.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

The data just posted here indicates 80 amp dual chargers will be available.

http://insideevs.com/breaking-epa-rates-tesla-model-x-range-90d-257-miles-p90d-250-miles/

Fuel Economy.gov shows 80 amp dual chargers (available?) as well.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34775&id=36786&id=36979&id=36980

Click on specs tab.

Hopefully the data is accurate. When the 70D first came out, their site showed both 70 and 85 kWh batteries until I pointed out the error. Hopefully the 80 amp number isn't just copied from the S.

 

[O-G]

I hope the 80 amp dual charger is true but I have been told repeatedly by Tesla reps that it will be 60 amp single charger only. I went ahead and wired my HPWC for the full 80 amps just in case. I just finished the install in one house yesterday. Actually I couldn't completely finish. The last item on the last page of the instructions says to plug in the vehicle and verify charging. Where is that MX?

 

[Lyon]

I hope the 80 amp dual charger is true but I have been told repeatedly by Tesla reps that it will be 60 amp single charger only. I went ahead and wired my HPWC for the full 80 amps just in case. I just finished the install in one house yesterday. Actually I couldn't completely finish. The last item on the last page of the instructions says to plug in the vehicle and verify charging. Where is that MX?

Well done! I don't think you'll be unhappy to have the extra output available. Who knows what EV you'll have after Model X.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I hope the 80 amp dual charger is true but I have been told repeatedly by Tesla reps that it will be 60 amp single charger only. I went ahead and wired my HPWC for the full 80 amps just in case. I just finished the install in one house yesterday. Actually I couldn't completely finish. The last item on the last page of the instructions says to plug in the vehicle and verify charging. Where is that MX?

Another TMC member offered to come by and test my two 14-50 outlets and confirmed they work. Thanks Armadillos!

 

[TexasEV]

I suspect the EPA listing was just copied from the Model S. Even for the Model S it's misleading in saying it takes 12 hrs. to charge with a "standard charger". To the EPA that's 30A, but 30A is not "standard charging" when it comes to Tesla. It wouldn't surprise me if GM had something to do with the EPA's display of standard charging, just as the EV tax credit was structured so a battery as small as a Volt has is eligible for the full $7500.

 

[O-G]

Another TMC member offered to come by and test my two 14-50 outlets and confirmed they work. Thanks Armadillos!

Received a call just today and the person reiterated gen 3 charger but no details of amps. I'd like a test by someone but I'm way the heck out on the coast. Doubt a MS person comes this way. It will be interesting if I get here and the charger does not work. All lights are green though so I assume it's all good.

 

[LargeHamCollider]

The data just posted here indicates 80 amp dual chargers will be available.

http://insideevs.com/breaking-epa-rates-tesla-model-x-range-90d-257-miles-p90d-250-miles/

Fuel Economy.gov shows 80 amp dual chargers (available?) as well.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34775&id=36786&id=36979&id=36980

Click on specs tab.

Hopefully the data is accurate. When the 70D first came out, their site showed both 70 and 85 kWh batteries until I pointed out the error. Hopefully the 80 amp number isn't just copied from the S.

I'd take this with a grain of salt, it also says interior volume and passenger volume are identical to MS.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I'd take this with a grain of salt, it also says interior volume and passenger volume are identical to MS.

Good point. I'm guessing they did just copy a lot of data over from the S.

 

[de704]

So.. the EPA ratings which mentions Model X charging at 80 Amps basically kill this silly "MX Single 60A charger" rumor. Now this thread can be deleted. :smile::tongue: