Love the smell of burning refinery in the morning:
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
Dreadnought
Member
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
IMHO it's legitimate but I wonder how much of a grey area a 'double tap' strike is on an oil refinery if the objective is to deter fire fighting and repair efforts. Civilians lose protection when they engage in 'Direct hostilities' which could be stretched to include fire fighting at an oil refinery needed to continue the war. I have to imagine it's going to be significantly more difficult to repair an oil refinery if already scarce technicians die in follow-up strikes.
Looks like a Bayraktar TB2.
More likely they just didn't hit the critical part of the refinery the first time. Same with Belbek airfield too perhaps?
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Do we know how much time elapsed between the first drone strike and the one that's visible in the video? Do we know that it's reasonable to assume that fire fighters and repair efforts were ongoing at the time of the filmed drone strike? And if UKR only sends one drone – then how will they know that one single drone won't get shot down? Also guessing they may want to hit multiple locations at a refinery. So to raise the probability for a successful attack/destruction of the target I'm guessing they may want to use more than one drone – or?
The Russian Dictator is using ballistic missiles or fast moving cruise missiles to hit civilian targets. Then in many cases (I don't know how often) a second missile strikes the civilian target a second time when the emergency personal have arrived at the scene. That way of conducting double tap strikes – and deliberately targeting civilians – seem 'many magnitudes' (or some such) worse to me than whatever UKR did in the case of this drone strike on this oil refinery.
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Ukraine's actions throughout this war don't come across as being vindictive. Unlike Russia's.
If they follow up one strike with another at the same location shortly afterwards, I'm pretty sure it's for sound tactical reasons.
As we've said before, they just don't have the resources or the desire to act like a terrorist. Unlike Russia.
If they follow up one strike with another at the same location shortly afterwards, I'm pretty sure it's for sound tactical reasons.
As we've said before, they just don't have the resources or the desire to act like a terrorist. Unlike Russia.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Or they are using very slow moving equipment over long distances and circuitous routs. This can lead to vast differences in time on target.
navguy12
Active Member
Ukraine war briefing: Kharkiv campaign won’t deliver major Russian breakthrough – Nato general
Ukraine accuses invaders of killing civilians and setting up human shields; sanctions over North Korean arms supply to Russia. What we know on day 814
www.theguardian.com
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
This seems really significant. If true, and if it can be sustained, then the Russian Dictator will hopefully have a much harder time going forward.
...] For the first time since the launch of Russia's full-scale invasion, no Ukrainian brigades have reported a lack of artillery shells, President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters on May 16.
"And this has been happening for the past two months," he said […
kyivindependent.com
...] For the first time since the launch of Russia's full-scale invasion, no Ukrainian brigades have reported a lack of artillery shells, President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters on May 16.
"And this has been happening for the past two months," he said […
Zelensky: No reports of artillery shortages for first time in full-scale war
Over the winter months, Ukraine's armed forces suffered a "critical" shortage of artillery shells, in large part due to delays in U.S. military aid.
kyivindependent.com
navguy12
Active Member
This is from the following “gifted” link from The Globe and Mail.
Since these links often just direct one to the home page and not the actual story, I have added some quotes to help via a Google search.
www.theglobeandmail.com
Since these links often just direct one to the home page and not the actual story, I have added some quotes to help via a Google search.
Families of missing Ukrainian civilians fight for any news of where their loved ones went
When Russian troops invaded more than two years ago, they took civilians from occupied areas to who-knows-where. Very few have come home, and Ukrainians want to know why
www.theglobeandmail.com
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
It may not have been a 'double tap'. But the possibility made me think of the legitimacy if it was. Do repair crews and fire fighters at an oil refinery also make themselves a legitimate target? It's a lot easier to repair a refinery than to get more people that know how to repair a refinery. The second strike in the long term could do more damage to Ruzzias infrastructure than the first.
It's imperative that Ukraine makes this as costly as possible for Russia within ethical reason. There is excess refining AND oil production capacity in the world, so striking Russian refineries and other petroleum infrastructure is just the ticket.
Putin is spending enormous amounts on his war machine, so he can afford to become a gasoline/diesel or even oil importer. Russian petroleum infrastructure is technically dual use (military/civilian) but removing it does not generally or disproportionately harm Russian civilians, so in general it is a legitimate war target for Ukrainians.
Putin is spending enormous amounts on his war machine, so he can afford to become a gasoline/diesel or even oil importer. Russian petroleum infrastructure is technically dual use (military/civilian) but removing it does not generally or disproportionately harm Russian civilians, so in general it is a legitimate war target for Ukrainians.
FielderJones
Member
In WW2 the allies (U.S. and British) bombed Nazi Germany industrial complexes, petroleum/coal infrastructure, airfields, dams, railways, etc. It is estimated that greater than 1/2 million German civilians died as a result. At the time this was largely considered ethical (minus the Dresden bombing - retribution?). 80 years later standards are higher and Ukraine (but not Russia) has been doing quite well here.
At the current rate of oil refinery strikes, and if they continue to keep those out of commission, Ukraine will have inflicted tens of billions USD capital loses from the Russian economy this year alone:
Economics of Oil Refining
...The investment cost of a completely new refinery depends on its size, complexity, and location. It is generally estimated that a 160,000 b/d (8 million tons per year) refinery, equipped with catalytic cracking, visbreaking, and gasoline units and built in Europe, would currently cost more than $6 billion. This cost can be significantly increased in the event of extremely stringent emission regulations, in terms of both the refinery’s environment and the product quality.
A simple refinery (atmospheric distillation and catalytic reforming, plus distillate hydrodesulfurization) of a smaller size (100,000 b/d or 5 million tons per year) would cost half of this amount, or $3 billion. But the construction of such small refineries, which are no more profitable because they produce too much heavy fuel oil, is no longer on the agenda. Conversely, the investment required for a very large refinery, equipped with a deep conversion unit in order to reduce the production of heavy fuel oil to very small quantities, would cost more than $10 billion.
Economics of Oil Refining
Yes, things are perfectly normal in Russland. Just do whatever Putler says to do.
COMING BACK AS MONSTERS Warped Russian troops returning as ‘sex sadists’ forcing Putin to give wives chilling manual on ‘putting up with abuse’
COMING BACK AS MONSTERS Warped Russian troops returning as ‘sex sadists’ forcing Putin to give wives chilling manual on ‘putting up with abuse’
A couple of bits I came across today. The Ukrainian drone with a machine gun in action:
Indication what the Russians planned for the Kharkhiv region
Indication what the Russians planned for the Kharkhiv region
