UK FSD Discussion

[snubbers]

As a new (to be) Model Y owner, I have the contrast of the VW ID.3 offering for Autopilot (Travel Assist).

I had a good outing in a FSD MYLR at Stratford Upon Avon and have done a few journeys in a M3P with basic AP.

I will say that where the ID.3 travel assist has come on leaps/bounds and has really impressed me for what was a free option on various trim levels, but is part of a £2k option pack if you don't have it, I have found the EAP/FSD really poor vfm..
The ID.3 Travel Assist is essentially EAP on Tesla minus Summon (that's not an option at all).

On the test drive through Stratford upon Avon, the FSD kept dropping out, or didn't want to engage, it had me barrelling in to a mini round about at 30 and dropped out last second, which felt odd. and my overall instant reaction was this is actually worse than the oppositions offering simply due to the more limited situations it would allow it to engage and maintain that. It even didn't stop at 2 sets of red lights, although the ID.3 can't do that either.

I've now driven a basic AP model 3 and found it OK, works on motorways, works on clearer roads with reasonable markings, and overall, despite the annoyance of lane changes disabling it (the VW approach is so much easier, even if you haven't the hardware, it just pauses AP when you indicate, and when you stop indicating and it picks up the lane, it auto re-engages.. very good compromise, although if you have the side mounted USS, it'll do the lot automatically).

So on the salary sacrifice, I had to raise an eyebrow to the £3400 (around £60 a month on salary sacrifice according to our lease portal) for EAP and certainly the £110 monthly increase for FSD felt obscene.

Saying all that, I am very much a techie person, and love the FSD Beta in the US, I've followed that and amazed at the progression.. I'd join a Beta for that over here in the UK if it wasn't £110 a month! and can see they are attempting to make it close to actual Full Self Driving, but it's a total farce to advertise it as 'Full Self Driving' in it's current UK guise.

I am very much looking forward to the Model Y for numerous reasons, but will miss the free/cheaper EAP and also the augmented reality heads-up, that is pretty special and definitely something I think many Tesla 3/Y owners would love.. it's very cool.

 

[Roy Batty]

As a new (to be) Model Y owner, I have the contrast of the VW ID.3 offering for Autopilot (Travel Assist).

I had a good outing in a FSD MYLR at Stratford Upon Avon and have done a few journeys in a M3P with basic AP.

I will say that where the ID.3 travel assist has come on leaps/bounds and has really impressed me for what was a free option on various trim levels, but is part of a £2k option pack if you don't have it, I have found the EAP/FSD really poor vfm..
The ID.3 Travel Assist is essentially EAP on Tesla minus Summon (that's not an option at all).

On the test drive through Stratford upon Avon, the FSD kept dropping out, or didn't want to engage, it had me barrelling in to a mini round about at 30 and dropped out last second, which felt odd. and my overall instant reaction was this is actually worse than the oppositions offering simply due to the more limited situations it would allow it to engage and maintain that. It even didn't stop at 2 sets of red lights, although the ID.3 can't do that either.

I've now driven a basic AP model 3 and found it OK, works on motorways, works on clearer roads with reasonable markings, and overall, despite the annoyance of lane changes disabling it (the VW approach is so much easier, even if you haven't the hardware, it just pauses AP when you indicate, and when you stop indicating and it picks up the lane, it auto re-engages.. very good compromise, although if you have the side mounted USS, it'll do the lot automatically).

So on the salary sacrifice, I had to raise an eyebrow to the £3400 (around £60 a month on salary sacrifice according to our lease portal) for EAP and certainly the £110 monthly increase for FSD felt obscene.

Saying all that, I am very much a techie person, and love the FSD Beta in the US, I've followed that and amazed at the progression.. I'd join a Beta for that over here in the UK if it wasn't £110 a month! and can see they are attempting to make it close to actual Full Self Driving, but it's a total farce to advertise it as 'Full Self Driving' in it's current UK guise.

I am very much looking forward to the Model Y for numerous reasons, but will miss the free/cheaper EAP and also the augmented reality heads-up, that is pretty special and definitely something I think many Tesla 3/Y owners would love.. it's very cool.

I found VW ACC plus Predict Ahead to be be much more usable in the real world, with less unpredictability. I didn't have the Travel Assist so don't know how well that works but on balance I think I'd rather have the functionality of just ACC plus Predict Ahead over EAP as it stands.

 

[goRt]

As a new (to be) Model Y owner, I have the contrast of the VW ID.3 offering for Autopilot (Travel Assist).

I had a good outing in a FSD MYLR at Stratford Upon Avon and have done a few journeys in a M3P with basic AP.

I will say that where the ID.3 travel assist has come on leaps/bounds and has really impressed me for what was a free option on various trim levels, but is part of a £2k option pack if you don't have it, I have found the EAP/FSD really poor vfm..
The ID.3 Travel Assist is essentially EAP on Tesla minus Summon (that's not an option at all).

On the test drive through Stratford upon Avon, the FSD kept dropping out, or didn't want to engage, it had me barrelling in to a mini round about at 30 and dropped out last second, which felt odd. and my overall instant reaction was this is actually worse than the oppositions offering simply due to the more limited situations it would allow it to engage and maintain that. It even didn't stop at 2 sets of red lights, although the ID.3 can't do that either.

I've now driven a basic AP model 3 and found it OK, works on motorways, works on clearer roads with reasonable markings, and overall, despite the annoyance of lane changes disabling it (the VW approach is so much easier, even if you haven't the hardware, it just pauses AP when you indicate, and when you stop indicating and it picks up the lane, it auto re-engages.. very good compromise, although if you have the side mounted USS, it'll do the lot automatically).

So on the salary sacrifice, I had to raise an eyebrow to the £3400 (around £60 a month on salary sacrifice according to our lease portal) for EAP and certainly the £110 monthly increase for FSD felt obscene.

Saying all that, I am very much a techie person, and love the FSD Beta in the US, I've followed that and amazed at the progression.. I'd join a Beta for that over here in the UK if it wasn't £110 a month! and can see they are attempting to make it close to actual Full Self Driving, but it's a total farce to advertise it as 'Full Self Driving' in it's current UK guise.

I am very much looking forward to the Model Y for numerous reasons, but will miss the free/cheaper EAP and also the augmented reality heads-up, that is pretty special and definitely something I think many Tesla 3/Y owners would love.. it's very cool.

VW was here with the golfs from 2014
Tesla is unpredictable and therefore dangerous

 

[Bouba]

I think that the discussion is going astray....it’s not about whether driving automation is a good or bad thing. It’s about Beta...the fact that our North American cousins have something that we don’t have...the very latest iteration of Tesla software.

 

[MrBadger]

On the test drive through Stratford upon Avon, the FSD kept dropping out, or didn't want to engage, it had me barrelling in to a mini round about at 30 and dropped out last second, which felt odd. and my overall instant reaction was this is actually worse than the oppositions offering simply due to the more limited situations it would allow it to engage and maintain that. It even didn't stop at 2 sets of red lights, although the ID.3 can't do that either.

FSD in UK is only designed for divided highways with controlled entry/exit and no vulnerable road users (pedestrians, cyclists etc. ). Ie motorways and some major A roads.

Its behaviour outside of those roads is purely coincidental. That said, its behaviour on those types of roads is also highly variable.

Stop sign/light control is an FSD only function that must be enabled. It can be used on TACC, but again, its behaviour is highly variable. If enabled and on TACC, you must acknowledge any potential stop situation it recognises regardless of whether it is safe/green otherwise the car will stop. This also includes false positives it may detect on motorways/tunnels - I have this option turned off because of this. It also often gets the stop line position completely wrong - not unusual for a T junction the stopline to be detected some way into the cross carriageway. It also gets confusing when multiple potential stop lines occur in quick succession, eg pedestrian crossings close to a junction entry/exit or traffic light controlled roundabouts.

 

[AnthonyLR]

For those of us not on twitter (Twitter now block us looking at content since EM took control), what does it say? Screenshot etc would be useful.

It says "as you were, Tesla has now removed the section in the manuals about FSD Beta."

Groan...

 

[GRiLLA]

As a new (to be) Model Y owner, I have the contrast of the VW ID.3 offering for Autopilot (Travel Assist).

I had a good outing in a FSD MYLR at Stratford Upon Avon and have done a few journeys in a M3P with basic AP.

I will say that where the ID.3 travel assist has come on leaps/bounds and has really impressed me for what was a free option on various trim levels, but is part of a £2k option pack if you don't have it, I have found the EAP/FSD really poor vfm..
The ID.3 Travel Assist is essentially EAP on Tesla minus Summon (that's not an option at all).

On the test drive through Stratford upon Avon, the FSD kept dropping out, or didn't want to engage, it had me barrelling in to a mini round about at 30 and dropped out last second, which felt odd. and my overall instant reaction was this is actually worse than the oppositions offering simply due to the more limited situations it would allow it to engage and maintain that. It even didn't stop at 2 sets of red lights, although the ID.3 can't do that either.

I've now driven a basic AP model 3 and found it OK, works on motorways, works on clearer roads with reasonable markings, and overall, despite the annoyance of lane changes disabling it (the VW approach is so much easier, even if you haven't the hardware, it just pauses AP when you indicate, and when you stop indicating and it picks up the lane, it auto re-engages.. very good compromise, although if you have the side mounted USS, it'll do the lot automatically).

So on the salary sacrifice, I had to raise an eyebrow to the £3400 (around £60 a month on salary sacrifice according to our lease portal) for EAP and certainly the £110 monthly increase for FSD felt obscene.

Saying all that, I am very much a techie person, and love the FSD Beta in the US, I've followed that and amazed at the progression.. I'd join a Beta for that over here in the UK if it wasn't £110 a month! and can see they are attempting to make it close to actual Full Self Driving, but it's a total farce to advertise it as 'Full Self Driving' in it's current UK guise.

I am very much looking forward to the Model Y for numerous reasons, but will miss the free/cheaper EAP and also the augmented reality heads-up, that is pretty special and definitely something I think many Tesla 3/Y owners would love.. it's very cool.

Sorry, I don't really follow your logic here. AutoPilot is on all Tesla, you don't need to buy a specific trim level or pay £2000.

The only bit of the VW 'Driver Assistance Pack Plus' that isn't included as standard is Park Assist, lets be honest and say it simply doesn't exist on Tesla, a new car with Tesla Vision doesn't have it at all, and even the older cars like mine have it but it's useless. My guess would be that VW has something that's ok but most of the time you didn't use it as it's too slow.

The EAP option will give you automated lane changes on motorways. that's not something VW offer. Entirely your call as to what that's worth to you, for me it really makes long journeys easier as my role is supervision and safety, it's doing all the driving.

 

[GRiLLA]

I think that the discussion is going astray....it’s not about whether driving automation is a good or bad thing. It’s about Beta...the fact that our North American cousins have something that we don’t have...the very latest iteration of Tesla software.

Right, they have a version of software that would not be legal here in the UK or EU at the moment. I do wonder if that could be the issue.

 

[MrBadger]

Right, they have a version of software that would not be legal here in the UK or EU at the moment. I do wonder if that could be the issue.

So what be illegal about FSD City Streets beta [software] that is not already covered by existing implemented restrictions if minor tweaks to behaviour that may already be a Tesla configuration switch?

Its been a while since I’ve looked at r79, which is what would cover L2 driver assist, but off top of my head…

Unconfirmed lane change - we are already use to the confirmed only option in NoA.

Careering into a corner at too fast a speed - if Tesla implemented it properly then trying to take corners at speeds that would make occupants potentially uncomfortable would not be an issue.

Limitations at junctions/intersections/roundabouts - potentially already covered under existing stop line control (poorly implemented) and confirmed lane change, but even if not, hardly a major limitation for many imho.

Moving into oncoming traffic to pass an obstacle- last time I looked even FSD beta struggled with that. And I don’t think it’s a regulatory thing, just poor/cautious implementation.

But lots of other things that we could benefit from that could be implemented from City Streets/Single stack and those above have either minor workarounds or need user confirmation as per auto lane change or just need to be implemented properly that may already be the case with newer version.

I suspect the real reason is less about regulations but more about Tesla not implementing minor configuration or behaviour changes for other regions yet.

 

[Bouba]

Right, they have a version of software that would not be legal here in the UK or EU at the moment. I do wonder if that could be the issue.

Of course it is…doesn’t mean that I don’t want it…regardless of the self driving good or bad debate.
Anyhow this subject is relevant now because legislation may (or may not) be imminent

 

[snubbers]

Sorry, I don't really follow your logic here. AutoPilot is on all Tesla, you don't need to buy a specific trim level or pay £2000.

The only bit of the VW 'Driver Assistance Pack Plus' that isn't included as standard is Park Assist, lets be honest and say it simply doesn't exist on Tesla, a new car with Tesla Vision doesn't have it at all, and even the older cars like mine have it but it's useless. My guess would be that VW has something that's ok but most of the time you didn't use it as it's too slow.

The EAP option will give you automated lane changes on motorways. that's not something VW offer. Entirely your call as to what that's worth to you, for me it really makes long journeys easier as my role is supervision and safety, it's doing all the driving.

To not drag it anymore off topic than I already have:
My point was around value for money. £2K (worse case, or free if you had the right trim) gets you Travel Assist absolutely equivalent to EAP which is £3400 and yes, Travel Assist in cars from late 2021 onwards do the exact same auto lane changes as EAP.. not to mention the way it combines ACC/Navigation awareness (slows for corners, roundabouts, etc) and the wider ability to engage travel assist and the complex situations it can deal with are slightly in excess of EAP.

However, I absolutely 100% agree with any implementation we are talking about being a significant and useful feature that I would now not want to do without having been using it for two years.

OT, the last time I checked in on how FSD Beta was going for those in the US it was a program you had to sign up to and be accepted and it had increase expectations on the driver, since it could go much more 'wrong' than regular FSD, if that is the case, perhaps it simply is that the EU/China would not allow that kind of beta program being available to the public..

I work in a heavily regulated industry and EU vs FDA regulations is something I deal with daily, they can be broadly similar in many ways, but also differ considerably in specific areas, especially when it comes to things like trials and marketing. We have the opposite problem in that we aren't allowed to even hint at a new product in the US market unless it is currently going through submission with the FDA, but we can pre-market in the EU without problems..

Sounds more along regulatory issues than anything else, but I'm just educating myself on the subject and expect you guys/gals will be ten steps ahead of me!

 

[GRiLLA]

OT, the last time I checked in on how FSD Beta was going for those in the US it was a program you had to sign up to and be accepted and it had increase expectations on the driver, since it could go much more 'wrong' than regular FSD, if that is the case, perhaps it simply is that the EU/China would not allow that kind of beta program being available to the public..

We require all new cars to comply with vehicle regulations, these are worded in such a way that FSD Beta could not be allowed. Under current regulation self driving is not allowed to make it's own decision to proceed at a traffic light for example.

 

[WannabeOwner]

it combines ACC/Navigation awareness (slows for corners, roundabouts, etc) and the wider ability to engage travel assist and the complex situations it can deal with are slightly in excess of EAP.

If I've got the right end of the stick, re: VW capability that is functionality that is intended to be provided by FSD once the City Street version (currently only available in USA) is activated here. So you could buy FSD now and hope that the additional functionality arrives within the time that you own the car and, you would be getting it at a discounted price now - on account of the fact that, in UK, it does not have those abilities yet.

Whether that would be worth tying up your money on is a different conversation

 

[goRt]

I think that the discussion is going astray....it’s not about whether driving automation is a good or bad thing. It’s about Beta...the fact that our North American cousins have something that we don’t have...the very latest iteration of Tesla software.

To be clear, NA is 2 rewrites ahead of us, we're on the 2016 codebase

 

[goRt]

Right, they have a version of software that would not be legal here in the UK or EU at the moment. I do wonder if that could be the issue.

Their EAP is 2 rewrites ahead of ours, surely that would be legal. The part outside of the regs is FSDb

 

[MrBadger]

We require all new cars to comply with vehicle regulations, these are worded in such a way that FSD Beta could not be allowed. Under current regulation self driving is not allowed to make it's own decision to proceed at a traffic light for example.

Is that your argument for FSD beta not being legal in this country?

Wind back to early days of FSD beta, the car could not proceed through traffic lights without human intervention. This is exactly the same functionality that we already have with FSD stop line control.

So it sounds like one of the red line features you are suggesting makes FSD beta fall foul of regulations, was actually initially implemented in a way that matches current UK FSD functionality by driver confirmation in similar way that we already have for stop line control and auto lane change.

Also, please cite the regulation that makes unconfirmed stop line control illegal, and any other regulations that have blanket non regulatory FSD beta compliance that could not be reconfigured or implemented better to not fall foul of timeouts or lateral forces that other vehicle manufacturers seem to handle so much better.

As my earlier post suggested, there is much more to FSD City Streets beta than having unconfirmed lane changes or stop line control which I would be fairly confident would be changed to confirmed lane change by user or Tesla FSD config toggle.

If, as is suggested by many, that Tesla FSD is hamstrung by regulations simply because current configuration is not set to UNECE legal settings, I would be surprised. More like that functional performance is adequate for typical UK scenarios and/or Tesla haven’t yet got round to releasing it outside of North America.

 

[Bouba]

Right now....here in France... I am just beginning to get the update 2023.38.9...the Release Notes describes the first function (Single Pull to Start Autopilot) using the word Beta four times

 

[andyzdeman]

As a driver assist that’s what you’d expect

For self driving you’d want to be able to get your laptop out and do a few emails, watch tv, sleep, essentially the Tesla promise for FSD

If you don’t see FSD as the transition of responsibility and accountability of the driving to the car, what do you think you’re paying for?

FSD from Tesla has never promised to be anything more than level 2. You’re confused.

 

[andyzdeman]

I'd come back to this discussion when you understand what "full self-driving" means.

Tesla has never claimed FSD is anything more than level 2. You’re getting confused with the literal interpretation of a name of the product.

Do you really think Mountain Dew is a bottle of Mountain Dew?

 

[Bouba]

I don’t think Tesla is designing a L2 car...followed by an L3 ...then L4. I think it’s an all or nothing approach....a self driving vehicle or bust....in its Beta stage (from what I can gather) a single drive can be anything from L0 to L4. Personally I prefer that to rival manufacturers who make a car that you can drive while reading a newspaper....but only on a dual carriage way, without tunnels, only in traffic at under 30 mph