The signature series is suppose to be more expensive.

[onlinespending]

There's a big difference between funding a company and putting down a deposit to hold your spot in line for a car.

There is a difference, and I'm glad you see that. Perhaps you're also capable of seeing that there's a difference lending $40 G's to a company that was at risk of becoming insolvent vs. putting money down on an upcoming car from a well-established, financially viable company such as BMW. There is also a difference putting money down 2 years ago when that risk was quite large vs. today when it is far less so. No one is entitled to anything. But clearly Tesla had a decision here, and choose not to step up and show any gratitude to those that put a large sum of money down well before it was even clear they would be able to live up to the hype and deliver the Model S in 2012, let alone at all. It's clear you don't sympathize with early Sig reservation holders like I do, and will not see eye to eye here. So lets agree to disagree.

 

[smorgasbord]

Perhaps you're also capable of seeing that there's a difference lending $40 G's to a company that was at risk of becoming insolvent vs. putting money down on an upcoming car from a well-established, financially viable company such as BMW.

I'm also quite capable of seeing that what you're continually doing is building strawmen that are not analogous to the actual situation at hand. Reservation holders did not lean money to Tesla, they put down earnest money to hold their place in line.

Some people put down money for a car that was 2 years down the road. They're now finding out that their car is going to be available on schedule, now within 8 months, that the pricing targets were met, that there are bonuses like an included UMC and an included 8 year battery warranty, that there's a performance option available at less cost than the equivalent sport option on the Roadster, and that their cars have special paint, special leather, special badging, and that they're getting their cars first.

Tesla is living up to what they discussed - what a rip-off!!!!

 

[Tommy]

One thing that has changed is the company has become public. Shareholders would rightfully want to know why a limited edition is getting a price break over a regular production as that is not the normal practice in the rest of the industry. Maybe as a private company Tesla could acknowledge the faith early signature depositor put in Tesla and offer some perks as a way of saying thanks, but as a public company the shareholders will come first.

Last though, there still might be something special for signature holders, time will tell.

 

[onlinespending]

I'm also quite capable of seeing that what you're continually doing is building strawmen that are not analogous to the actual situation at hand. Reservation holders did not lean money to Tesla, they put down earnest money to hold their place in line.

Some people put down money for a car that was 2 years down the road. They're now finding out that their car is going to be available on schedule, now within 8 months, that the pricing targets were met, that there are bonuses like an included UMC and an included 8 year battery warranty, that there's a performance option available at less cost than the equivalent sport option on the Roadster, and that their cars have special paint, special leather, special badging, and that they're getting their cars first.

Tesla is living up to what they discussed - what a rip-off!!!!

You're deviating from the points of this conversation. Tesla absolutely delivered AFAIC! I still think it's an awesome product at a fair price. However, all the things you mentioned are true of everyone! You keep mentioning things that are irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make with early Sig holders and the unique risk they took. Nothing they're getting now acknowledges that risk nor are any benefits commensurate with it.

Reservation holders did not loan money to Tesla? Really? By any definition, that is a loan. A loan without interest in fact. And a loan with a relatively high risk, given the possibility of insolvency. It's not as if the money sat somewhere in a safety deposit box and will be returned to you after some date. That money was used by Tesla. It was used just as another other investment capital that they raised, to pay off their enormous burn rate (wages, R&D, equipment, facilities, etc.). None of that money has yet to be put into the production of your actual car. That my friend is a loan.

 

[dsm363]

Some people put down money for a car that was 2 years down the road. They're now finding out that their car is going to be available on schedule, now within 8 months, that the pricing targets were met, that there are bonuses like an included UMC and an included 8 year battery warranty, that there's a performance option available at less cost than the equivalent sport option on the Roadster, and that their cars have special paint, special leather, special badging, and that they're getting their cars first.

Tesla is living up to what they discussed - what a rip-off!!!!

Actually, early reservations holders knew almost nothing about what they were getting, especially the final price. I think the original target date was fall 2011 too. We also had no idea what would be included in the Signature series other than it would come first. No one is entitled to anything but they could throw in a custom Tesla jacket or something. People like free stuff.

I'm very happy with what they were able to accomplish.

 

[Mycroft]

Hey, I got a key ring, does that count?

 

[dsm363]

Hey, I got a key ring, does that count?

Definitely. A free keychain is a must. A deal breaker if they don't give us one=)

 

[roblab]

An interest free loan, with a high level of personal interest. The only thing I was guaranteed was that if the company folded, Elon would cover the 40K and we would get it back. Handshake deal, look in the eyes and trust. Take it or leave it. I was supporting an idea. The idea has come to fruition and as an early reservation holder, I am paid back. I also got what was promised: An early spot on the list. It is possible I will have my car months before some others, but I don't know. If I just wanted a car, I could have bought one 3 years ago, but there is no comparison to this EV with BMW or Ferrari or GM or Ford, although many try. If you are bitter now, or simply greedy or want "more", well, I can't agree with that. I am happy with TM. And I didn't get a keychain!

 

[William13]

I made my original $5000 deposit knowing nothing was promised. I did put down a second deposit for $40,000 when it was obvious that Tesla would survive to actually make the Model S. Again I knew nothing was promised beyond special badging. I kept and still have my $5000 deposit until final choices are made. Anyone who can afford a $40,000 deposit should have been able to afford to have both reservations.
Tesla is a startup company which is doing things no one else has ever done. The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this forum are amazing to me. I do need to decide if the Signature Red and/or Performance are worth the money to me. By the way I still expect my Sig234 and P951 to be 4 to 6 months different in delivery time if I were to keep both. I will however be forced to drop one.

 

[dsm363]

An interest free loan, with a high level of personal interest. The only thing I was guaranteed was that if the company folded, Elon would cover the 40K and we would get it back. Handshake deal, look in the eyes and trust. Take it or leave it. I was supporting an idea. The idea has come to fruition and as an early reservation holder, I am paid back. I also got what was promised: An early spot on the list. It is possible I will have my car months before some others, but I don't know. If I just wanted a car, I could have bought one 3 years ago, but there is no comparison to this EV with BMW or Ferrari or GM or Ford, although many try. If you are bitter now, or simply greedy or want "more", well, I can't agree with that. I am happy with TM. And I didn't get a keychain!

I agree. Was just kidding. I am very happy with Tesla. Everyone there does indeed treat their customers up to this point like good friends. I can only think of a few companies where I could send an e-mail and get a response sometimes in a hour. They are always nice and I feel try to provide the best information they have. They have never been pushy sales people either.

 

[ckessel]

Reservation holders did not lend money to Tesla, they put down earnest money to hold their place in line.

There's a blurry line there. Given how strapped Tesla was before the DoE loan, you could argue Sig depositors were doing both. If Tesla didn't feel they needed the cash for operating capital then I would think it would have been put in an escrow account rather than in general capital.

They're now finding out that their car is going to be available on schedule

It was advertised as available in 2011 even as late as January 2011 when I made my reservation.

there's a performance option available at less cost than the equivalent sport option on the Roadster

On a absolute $ basis yes, on an percentage increase basis, no.

I'm not saying you don't have reasonable points, just that it's not as clear cut as you seem to state it.

 

[AnOutsider]

It was advertised as available in 2011 even as late as January 2011 when I made my reservation.

You 100% positive on that? My memory with dates suck because of how hectic my day-to-day is, but I DO remember being at CES back in January with my uncle looking at Ford's Sync and saying how the Model S would be cooler, but still more than a year away.

 

[ckessel]

You 100% positive on that? My memory with dates suck because of how hectic my day-to-day is, but I DO remember being at CES back in January with my uncle looking at Ford's Sync and saying how the Model S would be cooler, but still more than a year away.

100% absolutely positive because I remember pleading with my wife to get the Sig reservation quickly if we could so we could get late 2011 delivery. By the time we had the cash, the date had been pushed.

 

[Arnold Panz]

100% absolutely positive because I remember pleading with my wife to get the Sig reservation quickly if we could so we could get late 2011 delivery. By the time we had the cash, the date had been pushed.

This was squishy. They talked about starting production in late 2011, but it was quite awhile ago that they pushed the delivery dates to 2012. This was likely due to the lack of a factory until they got the old NUMMI plant. I think negotiating that deal over Downey set their timeline back a few months.

 

[ckessel]

This was squishy. They talked about starting production in late 2011, but it was quite awhile ago that they pushed the delivery dates to 2012. This was likely due to the lack of a factory until they got the old NUMMI plant. I think negotiating that deal over Downey set their timeline back a few months.

I was just addressing smorgasbord's "on time" comment. It wasn't delivered on time for a good chunk of the people that had put in a reservation before the date pushed back.

The Tesla webpage said "late 2011" when I reserved in January. I think it was officially pushed a couple months later. I remember talk on this forum about the delay being "official" when the website had updated to say "summer 2012". Given the factory purchase and all, it was perfectly reasonable, but it's not really true to say the Model S is "on time".

 

[Arnold Panz]

I'm also quite capable of seeing that what you're continually doing is building strawmen that are not analogous to the actual situation at hand. Reservation holders did not lean money to Tesla, they put down earnest money to hold their place in line.

Some people put down money for a car that was 2 years down the road. They're now finding out that their car is going to be available on schedule, now within 8 months, that the pricing targets were met, that there are bonuses like an included UMC and an included 8 year battery warranty, that there's a performance option available at less cost than the equivalent sport option on the Roadster, and that their cars have special paint, special leather, special badging, and that they're getting their cars first.

Tesla is living up to what they discussed - what a rip-off!!!!

I tend to agree with Onlinespending, and appreciate his sympathy for us Sig holders! I'm not angry at all at Tesla about this, but more perplexed than anything. I would have thought that Sig holders would have either gotten a slight price break on a fully loaded car with some minor add-ons, or charged a premium price with some awesome add-ons that would really make the Sigs unique. I wasn't expecting the premium price without a lot for it (one paint color, badging and some extra leather is pretty weak).

Unless someone really has money to burn, or REALLY wants the car in red (and is willing to pay at least $5000 for the privilege), or can't wait a couple of months additional for the car, I can't fathom why I, or anyone, would take the Sig over a non-Sig. It just seems like a tactical mistake to me, and I really don't understand the thought process, because Onlinespending's point (and mine) are that for the risk taken of paying so much on a leap of faith, you'd think Tesla would have wanted to really reward their most enthusiastic reservation holders who put the cost of a Volt down as a deposit with either much better "unique" features or a price break.

 

[ckessel]

I really don't understand the thought process [of getting a Sig]

Oh, I understand it. The desire to be exclusive or be first.

It really comes down to why did someone make a Sig reservation. If it was the "first and special" mindset, then this is no big deal. If it was "early adopter/proponent" viewpoint then you're expecting a little extra. Look at all the Kickstarter projects, the early folks that put higher level backing get a reward for the risk. Even the latest Sig holders would have 40k tied up for 6+ months in a company that could potentially fold, so from that viewpoint they're the "higher level of backing" folks.

I can _see_ both sides. Being who I am, I think one is a more sane position than the other :tongue:

 

[Eberhard]

So this is what you created your account to make your post about?

I don't disagree that under normal circumstances signature editions should cost more. And I agree that anyone that were to take out a Sig reservation today should pay more for the privilege of cutting in line. But for someone that put down $40k two years ago, he doesn't stand to gain anything over someone that does the same today (other than being slightly further up in the line, which may be a meaningless thing considering the first production batch may satisfy nearly all Sig holders). To say that early adopters aren't deserving of anything is to ignore the fact that Tesla's very existence was propped up by those that were willing to take on a rather huge risk of essentially providing an interest free loan to the fledging company in the amount of $40,000. They could offer a small token of appreciation (e.g. free pano roof upgrade or something) to those select individuals.

as i know, the very early birds gets a 10.000$ rebate on the Sig price. this rebate was canceled in the beginning this year for new reservations holder.

 

[InsanityWolf]

Nothing is set in stone yet. I think Elon might reward you guys with a little something something. They can't announce it outright because people would then start complaining about the "cut-off period" of who gets the token of appreciation, and new Sig holders might want it etc. At the end, probably only the people who receive the bonus will know about it.

 

[strider]

as i know, the very early birds gets a 10.000$ rebate on the Sig price. this rebate was canceled in the beginning this year for new reservations holder.

I believe this was only for Roadster owners who reserved a Sig Model S.