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Tesla Class 8 Semi Truck Thoughts
- Thread starter AWDtsla
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- Future Tesla
If I look at the Dutch transport-world, I think they can make truck driving a lot cheaper on electricity, I estimate about 50 cents a kilometer or even more!
Also, people want to have solar panels, big companies and transport companies usually have an almost perfect flat roof for this, on top of that, there are no real negative things about it like other sources, you don't hear it (like wind energy), don't smell it (like coal), actually, sometimes you don't even see it (because it's on top of a roof).
Both worlds somehow have a few problems, they both can destroy the current grid, charging time of a truck takes long compared to fueling with diesel.
I have the feeling not many people realize how much energy these batteries can contain and how weak the current grid actually is.
A current led light uses about 3 till 5 watt an hour, that's not 3kW, that's 0,003kW, an average household in the Netherlands uses about 3,5kW a day (that's a household, not a person! And that's a day, not an hour!) Tesla can charge with up to 120kW already, which is already absolutely insane actually!
120kW is about 35 times as much energy an hour as a Dutch household uses a day!
I once worked with 400 volt 3 fase 125Amp connectors:
And I've seen adult men in the strength of their life physically simply not beïng able to connect them.
And note, this 400 volt 3fase 125 Amp connecter was designed for "only" 80kW.
Anyway, 35*24 makes over 800 households at the same time when charging your Tesla!
Somehow, we are not charging a Tesla here, we want to charge a truck! Which will have a battery well over 10 times as big, so that will become 8000 households.
But guess what, truck companies don't own one truck, they often own 10, or even far more trucks, so we are adding 80.000 households or even far more when they charge at the same time.
But it's getting worse, when do you think we are going to charge these trucks? Exactly, right after all the jobs are usually finished, all around the same time and then we are going to cook at home and use even more electricity, this could very well happen right after the sun goes down, exactly, right at the moment the solar panels don't offer energy any more.
My solution:
I think we should combine both worlds and give trucks a swappable battery.
I know that swappable batteries don't work with cars because there are too many brands, to many different batteries, and too many different voltages.
I originally thought this idea out for Royal FloraHolland, they got several locations with absolutely massive roofs and enormous amounts of trucks that transport flowers:
Google Maps
Google Maps
Google Maps
"Total square footage auction buildings: 2,600,000m2 (approx. 400 football fields)
and cold stores: 130,000m2 (20 football fields)"
If you cover these roofs with solar panels you'll get:
1,6m² each solar panel which offers 270 watt peak which cost about 150 euro or less each:
PV panel JA Solar Jap6-60-270
Polykristallijn 260 Wp zonnepaneel
In the Netherlands, solar roofs offer about 0,85*270=229,5kW a year a panel.
Now let's make that 200kW a year just to be sure.
2600000m²/1,6m²=1625000 solar panels
Well, let's make that 1500000 because probably not all roof parts are perfect, the roof isn't originally designed for things like this.
1.500.000*150=225.000.000 euro
1.500.000*200=300.000.000 kW
1.500.000*270=405000kW peak, or 405mW peak, spread on 3 locations, possibly even higher if the companies around it also work together.
The Dutch grid is actually one of the strongest and most stable/predictable grids in the world and actually claim they can handle fluctuations like this, despite I actually doubt about that.
My following idea is to give truck trailers a swappable battery.
This means that there will come stations with (I guess) like a 1000 batteries each in them who are allowed to take a long time to charge up and can balance the grid at the same time.
There are now locations like Australia where they use batteries to balance the grid, there are even batteries making money by purely connecting batteries to a grid and there are stations that can swap batteries:
Parked electric cars are earning money balancing the grid in Denmark
Tesla is building world’s largest backup battery in Australia
I'd like to make a combination of all of these, so not only truck owners can get cheap energy, but everyone connected to the grid will.
On top of that, they can communicate with the power-stations who can work much more efficient this way.
If the power-station accidentally created to much energy, the battery stations suck it up, if they didn't create enough, they stop charging, or even give energy back.
Now let's move to the truck:
If I look at the current design of the trucks and their trailers I typically see this:
Semi-trailer truck - Wikipedia
A trailer with quite a bit of space just behind the trailer-wheels, and a massive gap between the truck-wheels and the trailer-wheels
To me, those spaces seem to be like perfect for a big battery.
The truck itself can have a 500kW battery (with the weight of 2300kg), the trailer can have a 500kW battery just behind it's wheels (or well, in a European trailer).
Also, the trailer can carry the swappable battery in between the truck and the trailer of about 1250kW (5500kg).
With the swappable battery, the truck can charge it's own batteries while driving and after it's empty, swap again and by that getting like 2250kW.
This will give the truck a peak range of about 1800km, or 1200 miles and from that point like 500 miles in 5 minutes:
Eerste 44-tons elektrische vrachtwagen in gebruik genomen bij Boonstra
1,25kw a kilometer or 2kW a mile.
I also think that the new trailers will need to have regenerating, this will make them much safer while driving fast, or downhill.
The braking system of current trailers is (as far as I know) mechanic, it only brakes when it feels that it's pushing the truck which is actually quite dangerous downhill, I think the trailer should do the main part of the braking and do it with electric communication.
This means that the truck-driver isn't purely in control of the truck, but when a trailer is connected, mainly brakes with the trailer.
This will make it possible for the truck to drive on with a lot lot lot less maintenance, the brake-discs are even less used compared to an electric car!
It can pretty much keep on driving till the tires are worn out.
Also note, that with the swappable battery in the trailer, the truck can keep on driving when the truck-battery is worn out.
Also, the swappable battery can be improved with a better one, as long as the voltage and it's size remains the same (batteries currently improve by about 10% a year).
The worn out swappable batteries can be placed in greenhouses, who currently often use gas generators at night, they did this because the grid only, simply couldn't handle the massive power the old light-bulbs used, from 10 years ago.
So even when a company found out an improved battery from new materials in a couple of years, it only needs to take the old ones out of the swap-station and put new ones in, over time the trucks come by to swap their battery and automatically get the improved one in as well.
The swappable battery will carry it's own software that recognizes the truck, the trailer and knows it's location (which might also be handy for the person waiting for it's charge). The swap-station can make a picture of the number-plate and check if there is nothing sabotaged.
The truck-driver can decide what batteries he likes to be charged.
Maybe it will also be possible that the batteries will only be charged to 80% for a discount, and the latest 20% might cost more to make empty, this way you can still drive on if you really need to, but at the same time prevent truck-drivers from destroying one,
because it will make the truck-drivers automatically realize that it will cost them money to drive around with a completely empty loaned battery.
The swap-station can change the kW price whenever it likes, this means that if there is much energy the price can go down, and if there isn't, the price might go up, for example if the grid offers more money as the trucks around 6PM.
If the swap-stations have a lot of batteries it can balance the grid very strongly and very fast.
This idea will have the following +points and -points:
+points:
The grid can handle a lot more fluctuations from solar panels, wind energy and so on, and eventually possibly even completely work with solar panels only.
The people at home don't need to do anything any more, everything happens automatically around them, they can't say, oh I don't like to see wind electricity, simply because they don't see it, they can keep their old cables and dislike a personal power-wall, it all happens behind their back, all the big companies who have trucks and want them to drive cheap can have solar panels on their roofs and generate enough electricity to actually let their trucks drive
Driving and maintenance will be a hell of a lot cheaper for truck-drivers, they can even continue driving with a worn out battery, and I'm talking about well over 50 euro an hour when it's driving 100km/h, which will also be possible with the new regenerating trailers.
Oil companies and petrol stations will have something new to invest in and don't need to die completely in the future, when no car needs petrol any more, they can pay the price for the swappable batteries, make the population happy and continue to make money from driving trucks, yes there will be far less, but the ones that stay will become much bigger, because they can sell food, or funny things to the superchargers as well.
-points:
Many people might need to change jobs
Tires need to improve massively, it probably actually becomes the new bottleneck in maintenance
Who's going to pay for the startup?
Now what companies can be involved to create something like this?
Philips, a big technical European company might create the solar panels, as well as the batteries
Mastervolt/Super B already work with big batteries, mainly for boats and (diesel-) trucks
Eneco energycompagnie to control the grid
Tennet (grid)
Koninklijke DSM NV, chemical company that's already helping with hydrogen tanks
Flora holland perfect roofs for solar panels, many trucks around it and carriage without too much weight
Shell for ideal gas station locations, a compagny with a massive budget and a compagny that will need to adept drastically in a very very short time, or lose it's value, possibly even get bankrupt. Their tar, and rubber might still become valuable since trucks will become more heavy.
Ahold for a lot more truck-traffic and investmoney, possibly also might like superchargers in front of their door
Jumbo same story
Schiphol because of a big flat roof and they also like their buses to drive electric, which also might get a swappable battery
DAF truck company that deliberately waited to invest big money in electric driving
Ewals Cargo Care, biggest trailer-company in the Netherlands, they also designed the European standard for the current biggest trailer
Berkhof bus company
Vredestein for improved tires that can also handle higher speeds, they will somehow have to listen to the people that work there for a long period of time, since their current management apparently does a terrible job, I even see this in their biketires, they used to have the best biketires in the world, but currently they are doing pretty bad
All of these compagnies have their headquarters within a 100 mile from each other, I think they can do the job and expand to the rest of Europe and America over time
Also, people want to have solar panels, big companies and transport companies usually have an almost perfect flat roof for this, on top of that, there are no real negative things about it like other sources, you don't hear it (like wind energy), don't smell it (like coal), actually, sometimes you don't even see it (because it's on top of a roof).
Both worlds somehow have a few problems, they both can destroy the current grid, charging time of a truck takes long compared to fueling with diesel.
I have the feeling not many people realize how much energy these batteries can contain and how weak the current grid actually is.
A current led light uses about 3 till 5 watt an hour, that's not 3kW, that's 0,003kW, an average household in the Netherlands uses about 3,5kW a day (that's a household, not a person! And that's a day, not an hour!) Tesla can charge with up to 120kW already, which is already absolutely insane actually!
120kW is about 35 times as much energy an hour as a Dutch household uses a day!
I once worked with 400 volt 3 fase 125Amp connectors:
And note, this 400 volt 3fase 125 Amp connecter was designed for "only" 80kW.
Anyway, 35*24 makes over 800 households at the same time when charging your Tesla!
Somehow, we are not charging a Tesla here, we want to charge a truck! Which will have a battery well over 10 times as big, so that will become 8000 households.
But guess what, truck companies don't own one truck, they often own 10, or even far more trucks, so we are adding 80.000 households or even far more when they charge at the same time.
But it's getting worse, when do you think we are going to charge these trucks? Exactly, right after all the jobs are usually finished, all around the same time and then we are going to cook at home and use even more electricity, this could very well happen right after the sun goes down, exactly, right at the moment the solar panels don't offer energy any more.
My solution:
I think we should combine both worlds and give trucks a swappable battery.
I know that swappable batteries don't work with cars because there are too many brands, to many different batteries, and too many different voltages.
I originally thought this idea out for Royal FloraHolland, they got several locations with absolutely massive roofs and enormous amounts of trucks that transport flowers:
Google Maps
Google Maps
Google Maps
"Total square footage auction buildings: 2,600,000m2 (approx. 400 football fields)
and cold stores: 130,000m2 (20 football fields)"
If you cover these roofs with solar panels you'll get:
1,6m² each solar panel which offers 270 watt peak which cost about 150 euro or less each:
PV panel JA Solar Jap6-60-270
Polykristallijn 260 Wp zonnepaneel
In the Netherlands, solar roofs offer about 0,85*270=229,5kW a year a panel.
Now let's make that 200kW a year just to be sure.
2600000m²/1,6m²=1625000 solar panels
Well, let's make that 1500000 because probably not all roof parts are perfect, the roof isn't originally designed for things like this.
1.500.000*150=225.000.000 euro
1.500.000*200=300.000.000 kW
1.500.000*270=405000kW peak, or 405mW peak, spread on 3 locations, possibly even higher if the companies around it also work together.
The Dutch grid is actually one of the strongest and most stable/predictable grids in the world and actually claim they can handle fluctuations like this, despite I actually doubt about that.
My following idea is to give truck trailers a swappable battery.
This means that there will come stations with (I guess) like a 1000 batteries each in them who are allowed to take a long time to charge up and can balance the grid at the same time.
There are now locations like Australia where they use batteries to balance the grid, there are even batteries making money by purely connecting batteries to a grid and there are stations that can swap batteries:
Parked electric cars are earning money balancing the grid in Denmark
Tesla is building world’s largest backup battery in Australia
On top of that, they can communicate with the power-stations who can work much more efficient this way.
If the power-station accidentally created to much energy, the battery stations suck it up, if they didn't create enough, they stop charging, or even give energy back.
Now let's move to the truck:
If I look at the current design of the trucks and their trailers I typically see this:
Semi-trailer truck - Wikipedia
A trailer with quite a bit of space just behind the trailer-wheels, and a massive gap between the truck-wheels and the trailer-wheels
To me, those spaces seem to be like perfect for a big battery.
The truck itself can have a 500kW battery (with the weight of 2300kg), the trailer can have a 500kW battery just behind it's wheels (or well, in a European trailer).
Also, the trailer can carry the swappable battery in between the truck and the trailer of about 1250kW (5500kg).
With the swappable battery, the truck can charge it's own batteries while driving and after it's empty, swap again and by that getting like 2250kW.
This will give the truck a peak range of about 1800km, or 1200 miles and from that point like 500 miles in 5 minutes:
Eerste 44-tons elektrische vrachtwagen in gebruik genomen bij Boonstra
1,25kw a kilometer or 2kW a mile.
I also think that the new trailers will need to have regenerating, this will make them much safer while driving fast, or downhill.
The braking system of current trailers is (as far as I know) mechanic, it only brakes when it feels that it's pushing the truck which is actually quite dangerous downhill, I think the trailer should do the main part of the braking and do it with electric communication.
This means that the truck-driver isn't purely in control of the truck, but when a trailer is connected, mainly brakes with the trailer.
This will make it possible for the truck to drive on with a lot lot lot less maintenance, the brake-discs are even less used compared to an electric car!
It can pretty much keep on driving till the tires are worn out.
Also note, that with the swappable battery in the trailer, the truck can keep on driving when the truck-battery is worn out.
Also, the swappable battery can be improved with a better one, as long as the voltage and it's size remains the same (batteries currently improve by about 10% a year).
The worn out swappable batteries can be placed in greenhouses, who currently often use gas generators at night, they did this because the grid only, simply couldn't handle the massive power the old light-bulbs used, from 10 years ago.
So even when a company found out an improved battery from new materials in a couple of years, it only needs to take the old ones out of the swap-station and put new ones in, over time the trucks come by to swap their battery and automatically get the improved one in as well.
The swappable battery will carry it's own software that recognizes the truck, the trailer and knows it's location (which might also be handy for the person waiting for it's charge). The swap-station can make a picture of the number-plate and check if there is nothing sabotaged.
The truck-driver can decide what batteries he likes to be charged.
Maybe it will also be possible that the batteries will only be charged to 80% for a discount, and the latest 20% might cost more to make empty, this way you can still drive on if you really need to, but at the same time prevent truck-drivers from destroying one,
because it will make the truck-drivers automatically realize that it will cost them money to drive around with a completely empty loaned battery.
The swap-station can change the kW price whenever it likes, this means that if there is much energy the price can go down, and if there isn't, the price might go up, for example if the grid offers more money as the trucks around 6PM.
If the swap-stations have a lot of batteries it can balance the grid very strongly and very fast.
This idea will have the following +points and -points:
+points:
The grid can handle a lot more fluctuations from solar panels, wind energy and so on, and eventually possibly even completely work with solar panels only.
The people at home don't need to do anything any more, everything happens automatically around them, they can't say, oh I don't like to see wind electricity, simply because they don't see it, they can keep their old cables and dislike a personal power-wall, it all happens behind their back, all the big companies who have trucks and want them to drive cheap can have solar panels on their roofs and generate enough electricity to actually let their trucks drive
Driving and maintenance will be a hell of a lot cheaper for truck-drivers, they can even continue driving with a worn out battery, and I'm talking about well over 50 euro an hour when it's driving 100km/h, which will also be possible with the new regenerating trailers.
Oil companies and petrol stations will have something new to invest in and don't need to die completely in the future, when no car needs petrol any more, they can pay the price for the swappable batteries, make the population happy and continue to make money from driving trucks, yes there will be far less, but the ones that stay will become much bigger, because they can sell food, or funny things to the superchargers as well.
-points:
Many people might need to change jobs
Tires need to improve massively, it probably actually becomes the new bottleneck in maintenance
Who's going to pay for the startup?
Now what companies can be involved to create something like this?
Philips, a big technical European company might create the solar panels, as well as the batteries
Mastervolt/Super B already work with big batteries, mainly for boats and (diesel-) trucks
Eneco energycompagnie to control the grid
Tennet (grid)
Koninklijke DSM NV, chemical company that's already helping with hydrogen tanks
Flora holland perfect roofs for solar panels, many trucks around it and carriage without too much weight
Shell for ideal gas station locations, a compagny with a massive budget and a compagny that will need to adept drastically in a very very short time, or lose it's value, possibly even get bankrupt. Their tar, and rubber might still become valuable since trucks will become more heavy.
Ahold for a lot more truck-traffic and investmoney, possibly also might like superchargers in front of their door
Jumbo same story
Schiphol because of a big flat roof and they also like their buses to drive electric, which also might get a swappable battery
DAF truck company that deliberately waited to invest big money in electric driving
Ewals Cargo Care, biggest trailer-company in the Netherlands, they also designed the European standard for the current biggest trailer
Berkhof bus company
Vredestein for improved tires that can also handle higher speeds, they will somehow have to listen to the people that work there for a long period of time, since their current management apparently does a terrible job, I even see this in their biketires, they used to have the best biketires in the world, but currently they are doing pretty bad
All of these compagnies have their headquarters within a 100 mile from each other, I think they can do the job and expand to the rest of Europe and America over time
Brando
Active Member
I'd like to see Tesla Semi develop along the lines of "trailers with containers" having batteries, motors and self driving tech. to follow the lead tractor [Tesla Semi]. One driver/tractor leading a platoon of "trailers with containers". At the ocean ports, air ports, warehouse districts the trailers could well operate on their own to handle the "last mile". I think you get the idea.
PS- During the day, plastic flexible solar panels rolled out on the roofs to provide some trickle charging?
Moving air supplies cooling - a good thing. Aerodynamics always a prime consideration.
PS- During the day, plastic flexible solar panels rolled out on the roofs to provide some trickle charging?
Moving air supplies cooling - a good thing. Aerodynamics always a prime consideration.
ccutrer
Active Member
Do you have a source for this? I know the Netherlands is a small country, and presumably lots of small apartments, but around my neck of the woods in suburbia the average is probably closer to 20-30kWh/day. I'm personally much higher, probably double, with two EVs and a decent commute (~60 miles round trip).
That's not to say this detracts from the overall impression of your post - electrifying all trucking traffic would be a massive shift in energy use, and will require major shifts in the grid. This isn't the first proposal in this thread to have massive battery swap sites in order to kill two birds with one stone - speed up "charging", and smooth the grid demand.
Energieverbruik 2017 - Gemiddeld Energieverbruik Nederland
It's Dutch
"Elektriciteitsverbruik
Gemiddeld gebruikt een huishouden zo’n 3.500 kWh per jaar. Ook bij het verbruik van elektriciteit zijn er verschillende factoren die beïnvloeden hoe hoog je energierekening is. Er zijn grote verschillen in elektriciteitsgebruik tussen huishoudens. De hoeveelheid apparaten en hoe zuinig je apparaten zijn én je ze gebruikt beïnvloeden dit."
Free translation:
"Electricity usage
On average, a household uses about 3.500kWh a year. There are several factors that have an influence on your electricity bill. There are big differences between households. A number of devices and how economical they are and how you are using them have an influence on this."
An electric car indeed has a massive influence on your electricity bill, I estimate most current electric cars use on average about 0.2kW a km, so if you drive 30km a day you lose about 5kW, which is equal to an electric barbeque for about 2,5 hours.
*ah, I was wrong, it was 3500kW a year, I remembered it as 3,5kW a day but it's appearantly about 10kW a day...
Still, 10kW a day is nothing compared to 1000kW an hour
Last edited:
ccutrer
Active Member
3s-a-charm
Active Member
How have we NOT seen a spy photo of the Tesla Semi yet? Isn't there anyone scouting out Hawthorn for an elusive shot of a Semi? Can't be that hard to spot...? I can't believe I am getting so excited about a Semi. 
Reciprocity
Active Member
How have we NOT seen a spy photo of the Tesla Semi yet? Isn't there anyone scouting out Hawthorn for an elusive shot of a Semi? Can't be that hard to spot...? I can't believe I am getting so excited about a Semi.
The test truck might look exactly like any other truck. They could have put a fascia on from a existing truck. They need to put the real fascia on for the event.
ccutrer
Active Member
Peterbilt Salesperson: "Hmm, that was weird. I just sold a dozen trucks to some company in California called Tesla. They probably just need to deliver a bunch of cars... right?!"
Nah, It was the Peterbilt Parts department: "Hmm, that was weird. I just sold a dozen cab bodies to some company in California called Tesla. All of their trucks must have been vandalized or something."
Wild Weasel
Member
As far as I also work on a truck I would love to see an electric version.. but I think this will lasst 10 or more years until useful options are available.. also made some thinking how to make a electric truck usable for our company, but there is still no option to get the range of 400 lit diesel into an accupack that ist not much bigger than a normal motor and tank... But I really look forward to the 26th of October...
EfficientWatts
Member
The connector talk made me wonder if there was a more industrial standard (at least for North America). Come to find out that for EV buses and medium/heavy duty there's J3068, which is still under development, which actually looks like the european type 2 ccs connector.
Funny thing is I only first found out about it via a teslamotorsclub post, What is a J3068 charger?),
Info is hard to come by but digging through some long presentations I was eventually able to find some info on it (as well as on google:
https://epri.azureedge.net/documents/Day One Presentations June2016.pdf (search for J3068).
One thing the standard is doing is to ensure that the higher 3-phase voltages and currents work with the connector. Max is 160A for a potential max of 160 x 3 x 277 (480y) = ~132kW A/C. Possibly more if you're in Canada. It can also do DC charging ala CCS.
It would be interesting to see what kind of connector they use for the Tesla semi. Given its more commercial application I wonder if they will use this standard vs the Tesla connector.
Funny thing is I only first found out about it via a teslamotorsclub post, What is a J3068 charger?),
Info is hard to come by but digging through some long presentations I was eventually able to find some info on it (as well as on google:
https://epri.azureedge.net/documents/Day One Presentations June2016.pdf (search for J3068).
One thing the standard is doing is to ensure that the higher 3-phase voltages and currents work with the connector. Max is 160A for a potential max of 160 x 3 x 277 (480y) = ~132kW A/C. Possibly more if you're in Canada. It can also do DC charging ala CCS.
It would be interesting to see what kind of connector they use for the Tesla semi. Given its more commercial application I wonder if they will use this standard vs the Tesla connector.
strider
Active Member
For long haul, I think an electric semi only works if it's autonomous. It doesn't matter if it has to stop and charge for 30 mins every 2 hours as it can still drive 18 hours/day which is way more than a human can do. Then if the battery tech improves to 30 min charge every 3 hours of driving now it's driving 21 hours/day. But if it's not autonomous it just doesn't work. You're going to be paying a driver a ton of time to just sit around waiting to charge and burning the clock as to how many hours/day they can drive.As far as I also work on a truck I would love to see an electric version.. but I think this will lasst 10 or more years until useful options are available.. also made some thinking how to make a electric truck usable for our company, but there is still no option to get the range of 400 lit diesel into an accupack that ist not much bigger than a normal motor and tank... But I really look forward to the 26th of October...
Until they're autonomous the trucks will only be useful for local deliveries.
Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't really realise what they are talking about when it comes to such high amps.
A 160A cable are 5*70mm² cables, I've seen adult men physically not beïng able to connect 125 amp (50mm²) plugs.
In Europe, 70mm² cables are usually powerlock cables (5 different single cables).
We are talking about 5 garden hoses full of copper
They have a weight of about 10 pound a meter and if you let the plastic connector fall out of your hand during the winter, they break on the ground. Oh and the cables feel very very cold during winter.
So yet, it's theoretically possible, but for the avarage yo, it's quite a hard task, and if you really want 5 connectors, you should be really really carefull not to mix them up.
Forget about clunky cables and plugs and use overhead charging:
This system delivers up to 1MW
Home
This is also well suited for autonomous vehicles
This system delivers up to 1MW
Home
This is also well suited for autonomous vehicles
I know about the system, but this means they need to adapt the grid everywere and you still can't drive everywere after you did, just the very same route time over time again. It's basically like a metro. They even call it a Trolly I believe.Forget about clunky cables and plugs and use overhead charging:
This system delivers up to 1MW
Home
This is also well suited for autonomous vehicles
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