[Spoiler Alert + Mild Speculation] Tesla has created a monster!

[neroden]

Thanks for the evidence that Model 3 is using rare earth permanent magnets.

It seems like a questionable decison to start relying on the neodymium supply chain, but I'm sure they must have had a reason.

 

[malcolm]

AC 3 PHASE PERMENANT MAGNET

Is no one else slightly bothered that they spelt it PERMENANT?

Or that the form was filed last thing on a Friday? (06/30/2017 08:04:21 PM - to be precise)

I'm not sure this info is as reliable as we hope it is.

 

[tomas]

Is no one else slightly bothered that they spelt it PERMENANT?

Or that the form was filed last thing on a Friday? (06/30/2017 08:04:21 PM - to be precise)

I'm not sure this info is as reliable as we hope it is.

Agreed. Multiple press reports say induction. I think we are giving a lot of credence to this single piece of evidence.

 

[aronth5]

Of course, it's possible the reason Tesla shows 310 miles range for the long range AWD version is simply that they haven't built any yet.

We do know the prototype builds at the initial reveals were dual motor so while they haven't built any production AWD cars (that we know of) Tesla does have some information on range.
Of course until they test range on a dual motor production car we'll just have to keep speculating.

 

[kingjamez]

Let's remember that this is a government worker filled out form... I used to be one and I can tell you that virtually no USG produced form doesn't have some sort of typo / error. The 3 may well have permanent magnets, but I'm not going to put much confidence in that based off this form.

-Jim

 

[scaesare]

This has to be a typo, otherwise you would see a driveshaft in this photo:

View attachment 240182

Indeed. In another thread somebody suggested hub motors, but you don't see a (likely large orange) wiring harness feeding the hub, despite seeing the small black brake line.

I say "both" for regen is either a mistake, or the document aims to cover multiple models.

 

[scaesare]

If the rating of 230Ah for the battery from this document is correct, and @wk057 's data is also correct at 46 cells in parallel per group, then that implies the 2170 cells are rated at 5Ah.

At a nominal 3.6V, that would make them 18Wh cells. With 4416 cells in the large pack (again @wk057 data), that works out to a 79,488 Wh pack.

 

[JeffK]

Is no one else slightly bothered that they spelt it PERMENANT?

It's the EPA... they barely get numbers right the first time.

 

[kingjamez]

If the rating of 230Ah for the battery from this document is correct, and @wk057 's data is also correct at 46 cells in parallel per group, then that implies the 2170 cells are rated at 5Ah.

At a nominal 3.6V, that would make them 18W cells. With 4416 cells in the large pack (again @wk057 data), that works out to a 79,488 Wh pack.

Not to nitpick... ok maybe a little: that should be 18Wh .

That 78.3kWh is the useable about of energy in the pack. The actual pack will have more than that. Expecting just over 80kWh, and 4416 cells, you are looking at closer to 5500mah / cell or 19.8Wh if 3.6v nominal.

-Jim

 

[transpondster]

Not to nitpick... ok maybe a little: that should be 18Wh .

That 78.3kWh is the useable about of energy in the pack. The actual pack will have more than that. Expecting just over 80kWh, and 4416 cells, you are looking at closer to 5500mah / cell or 19.8Wh if 3.6v nominal.

-Jim

more like 5050 mAh which would be like 2-5% more than 18650GA adjusted by size

 

[kingjamez]

more like 5050 mAh which would be like 2-5% more than 18650GA adjusted by size

You are right, missed the zero.
Here is the "right" math.

Assuming that you have 4416 cells and an 80.5kWh pack: 80500/4416/3.6v = 5064 mAh per cell or 18.2 Wh

Interestingly if you assume that number for the standard range Model 3, with a 2944 cell pack will have a 53.6kWh pack.

-Jim

 

[R.S]

Is no one else slightly bothered that they spelt it PERMENANT?

Or that the form was filed last thing on a Friday? (06/30/2017 08:04:21 PM - to be precise)

I'm not sure this info is as reliable as we hope it is.

Agreed. Multiple press reports say induction. I think we are giving a lot of credence to this single piece of evidence.

Let's remember that this is a government worker filled out form... I used to be one and I can tell you that virtually no USG produced form doesn't have some sort of typo / error. The 3 may well have permanent magnets, but I'm not going to put much confidence in that based off this form.

-Jim

But there is another piece of evidence:

China Rare Earth Quarterly Report-SMM – Metal Events
Beijing Zhong Ke San Huan High-Tech Co Ltd: Company Profile - Bloomberg

So this still could be just coincidence, but Tesla signing a supply deal with a big Chinese rare earth metal supplier, who's specialty is NdFeB (neodymium-iron-boron) magnets, is very suspicious.

 

[insaneoctane]

@malcolm
Speculation is in the thread title! I think the source of the single file being EPA government site increases the likelihood of the legitimacy of the document, but with hackers these days I appreciate the "speculation" inclusion in the title!

 

[Alketi]

C'mon guys. The document on the EPA server wasn't hacked solely to pretend that Tesla is using permanent magnet AC motors, nor is it just a random coincidence that Tesla signed an agreement to purchase rare earth metals. Geez.. .

 

[Dave EV]

The relatively low efficiency at lower speeds does indicate either high friction at low speeds (rolling resistance, maybe) or AC induction.

But then the top speed is very high for a DC PM motor. Maybe either very high gearing (which would reduce efficiency at low speeds) or some sort of unique motor setup.

 

[ggies07]

Why doesn't someone just tweet Elon and ask if this is legit?.....

 

[kingjamez]

I don't know either way. However it is interesting that Elon said the semi would use 10 Model 3 motors. He also said it would out-tug-o-war a standard semi, uphill. If a perm magnet motor does better at low speed with better torque, perhaps that's why the Model 3 motor is being used in the semi.

-Jim

 

[SageBrush]

Why doesn't someone just tweet Elon and ask if this is legit?.....

Excellent idea. Let us know how it goes.

 

[MP3Mike]

However it is interesting that Elon said the semi would use 10 Model 3 motors

He never said 10... At least that I can find.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Is no one else slightly bothered that they spelt it PERMENANT?

Or that the form was filed last thing on a Friday? (06/30/2017 08:04:21 PM - to be precise)

I'm not sure this info is as reliable as we hope it is.

It's probably reliable as a whole, but someone definitely submitted it at the last second. On plus side, it has a lot more info than some other submissions I've seen.