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Wiki SpaceX as a Company - General Discussion

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JB47394

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Mar 11, 2022
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There's a Wall Street Journal article on some numbers they saw on SpaceX finances (WSJ is a paid subscription). The article is a bit of a hash of numbers, so I'll try to summarize a bit.

FY 2021
Revenue: $4.2 billion (including $1.5 billion from sale of stock)
Expenses: $5.2 billion
Loss: $1 billion

FY 2022
Revenue: $5.7 billion (including $2.0 billion from sale of stock)
Expenses: $6.3 billion
Loss: $0.5 billion

FY 2023 (Q1)
Revenue: $1.5 billion
Expenses: $1.5 billion
Gain: $55 million

Projected FY 2023
Revenue: $6.0 billion
Expenses: $5.8 billion
Gain: $220 million

During 2021 and last year, the company spent a total of $5.4 billion on purchases of property and equipment and incurred significant research and development costs, the documents show. Some portion of that spending is tied to its program developing Starship, a powerful rocket that poses immense hurdles for SpaceX. Costs for Starship weren’t specified in the documents.

Also mentioned is that Falcon 9 flights got more expensive, going from $62 to $67 million, while Falcon Heavy flights went from $90 million to $97 million.

I'm posting all this here because I figure that most of the $5.4 billion spent in 2021 and 2022 was on Starship and its supporting facilities. Perhaps $4 billion. Call it $2 billion per year, with $700 million for Falcon and Starlink operations.
 
which means without the expense of Starship program SpaceX will be immensely profitable ?
I left out an important revenue stream; government contracts. No Starship means a loss of some amount of government contract money, and it probably also means a loss of significant stock sales. Investors/speculators are going for SpaceX because of Starship. The Falcons are a good product, but they're nothing that excites investors as much as Starship. Starship is a quantum leap in payload lofting capability and they want in on the possibilities.

So I suspect that SpaceX's finances aren't so hot. They're surviving on government work and speculator money (and possibly Elon's money). If they pull off Starship, they'll be all set. If it fails, they'll still be the dominant launch provider on the planet, but the company's grand plans will come to nothing.

Separately, I'm wondering what will happen should Starship go operational. That's a lot of launch capacity coming online. Is anyone besides Elon prepared to use it? The entire space industry has been revolving around payloads of roughly 20 tons for a long time. Are there enough payloads like that to keep Starship busy? (Imagine big satellites and telescopes ridesharing together - crazy) Starship could really use some ambitious plans from governments and from companies other than SpaceX. Plans that involve lofting 100 ton payloads to LEO and beyond. Each customer that SpaceX gets means that much more money that Elon can spend to get to Mars.
 
SpaceX is also spending many tens of millions each quarter to build Starlink sats and place them in orbit. They have Starlink revenue from something like over 1.5 million subscribers (is that right?) but is it enough yet to pay for the cost of continuing to build out the network and operating it? I don’t know, but my guess is “no”.
 
which means without the expense of Starship program SpaceX will be immensely profitable ?
Yes. But without Starship there's no way to greatly expand the Starlink constellation, and most of SpaceX's valuation relies on the hope of a much more powerful Starlink constellation bringing in tons of revenue, so Starship is indirectly required from a purely business point of view.
 
So I suspect that SpaceX's finances aren't so hot. They're surviving on government work and speculator money (and possibly Elon's money). If they pull off Starship, they'll be all set. If it fails, they'll still be the dominant launch provider on the planet, but the company's grand plans will come to nothing.

I'm curious what you mean by not so hot. I don't have access to the article, so I can't work back to the source materials.

My immediate reaction to the financials is that if the revenue and expenses represent Income Statement information, then the fact that SpaceX is now marginally profitable is amazingly good. Though that view is also informed by my belief (lacking actual evidence - yes, I do see the limitation of that belief) that commercial space companies are all running on Hopium that they will some day be profitable. Is anybody else actually profitable? I guess I didn't really expect SpaceX to be profitable yet either - only that they have a business plan and execution that seems likely to lead to profitability, its own amazing outcome.
 
I left out an important revenue stream; government contracts. No Starship means a loss of some amount of government contract money, and it probably also means a loss of significant stock sales. Investors/speculators are going for SpaceX because of Starship. The Falcons are a good product, but they're nothing that excites investors as much as Starship. Starship is a quantum leap in payload lofting capability and they want in on the possibilities.

So I suspect that SpaceX's finances aren't so hot. They're surviving on government work and speculator money (and possibly Elon's money). If they pull off Starship, they'll be all set. If it fails, they'll still be the dominant launch provider on the planet, but the company's grand plans will come to nothing.

Separately, I'm wondering what will happen should Starship go operational. That's a lot of launch capacity coming online. Is anyone besides Elon prepared to use it? The entire space industry has been revolving around payloads of roughly 20 tons for a long time. Are there enough payloads like that to keep Starship busy? (Imagine big satellites and telescopes ridesharing together - crazy) Starship could really use some ambitious plans from governments and from companies other than SpaceX. Plans that involve lofting 100 ton payloads to LEO and beyond. Each customer that SpaceX gets means that much more money that Elon can spend to get to Mars.
As regards the "Falcon not exciting investors as much as Starship" thing... that feels a little bit like SpaceX is overshadowing themselves.

Falcon 9 is an incredible product and launches on it a very compelling offering. It's reliable, abundantly available, and comparatively inexpensive, Falcon Heavy adds to that capability that's unmatched.

I suspect that, without the interest overhang of the even more revolutionary offering that is Starship, Falcon 9 would have near 100% mindshare. By any other measure, it's head and shoulders above the competition in many ways. I also suspect that, if Elon wasn't using everything that SpaceX does as a steppingstone to Mars, and given the reusability and relentless pace of innovation & efficiency that he fosters in his companies, SpaceX could be quite profitable if that was the end goal.
 
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I'm curious what you mean by not so hot. I don't have access to the article, so I can't work back to the source materials.
I was just discouraged by the magnitude of their government contracts and stock sales, and a big chunk of their Falcon 9 business is their own Starlink launches.

Well, how much business do they actually have? Wikipedia breaks down Launch Outcomes for Falcon 9 in 2022 as 34 Starlink, and 27 commercial and governmental flights. So far in 2023, it's 32 and 24, respectively. That's roughly 44% commercial. If they complete their 100 launches and that commercial percentage holds, that's 44 launches at $67 million each, or $3 billion gross. I have no idea what their net might be, but $3 billion is a promising number for a reusable booster. Certainly far better than the Hopium crowd's 100% expended rockets.

I suspect that, without the interest overhang of the even more revolutionary offering that is Starship, Falcon 9 would have near 100% mindshare.
It would revolutionize the business the stuff that we launch today, but would it ever trigger dreams of grand plans in space? Yes, SpaceX would be the dominant launch provider, until somebody else duplicated the approach. Then we'd have some competition, but we'd still be lofting 20 ton payloads. Note that Starlink needs Starship if they're ever going to get those V2 satellites going. That's why I say that the Falcons are great, but they're not what's needed to pursue anything fundamentally new in space. It's also why I wonder how long it will take for companies and governments to start planning based on Starship. It's not rocketry as it has been for the past 40 years.

I also suspect that, if Elon wasn't using everything that SpaceX does as a steppingstone to Mars, and given the reusability and relentless pace of innovation & efficiency that he fosters in his companies, SpaceX could be quite profitable if that was the end goal.
How? That's the key question. SpaceX needs customers. Who is going to fork over the trillions of dollars that would make SpaceX into the Mars company or even just the 3X Saudi Aramco cash cow? Who wants to do stuff in space that much and what will they be doing there? I'm not asking for actual answers because all we have today are science fiction fantasies. I want to know what specific companies will be able to finance specific projects in space to make money for themselves and, incidentally, for SpaceX as a launch provider? Hopium doesn't pay bills.
 
How? That's the key question. SpaceX needs customers. Who is going to fork over the trillions of dollars that would make SpaceX into the Mars company or even just the 3X Saudi Aramco cash cow? Who wants to do stuff in space that much and what will they be doing there? I'm not asking for actual answers because all we have today are science fiction fantasies. I want to know what specific companies will be able to finance specific projects in space to make money for themselves and, incidentally, for SpaceX as a launch provider? Hopium doesn't pay bills.
I don't know the financials, but Starlink is looking pretty good as a revenue generator. Presumably it pencils out at some scale where, like most (all?) capital intensive businesses, the financials flip from burning cash like crazy, to generating cash and profit like crazy.

One thing I am really confident of with Elon is that he's not just technically brilliant - the real brilliance (MHO) is that he puts the best of business insight into the technology and understands that everything he does (that anybody does) has to be economic. By best of business insight, he doesn't have the financial engineering and quarterly focus common with MBA grads - he understands cash flow, financing, fiscal efficiency, margins, etc.. all in service of providing a product or service that people want badly. Lower prices make it accessible to more and more people in a highly non-linear fashion, so lower prices are always going to benefit the business (as long as costs are going down at the same time). He uses the financial knowledge to build "forever businesses" (my term) rather than businesses that look good in the quarter, or maybe a year or 2.

SpaceX isn't pursuing Starlink out of the goodness of its heart, though Elon does an amazing job of identifying opportunities that can satisfy many needs / desires / wants simultaneously, all including stuff that benefits humanity. Such as high quality internet anywhere you can see the sky. Starlink is being pursued because the economics can support some really big scale space launch capacity - capacity that is needed for other space activities. Its funding the later stuff, and its doing it by being profitable.


I personally don't see space tourism as that much of a business for a couple of decades. It'll grow in that direction with deca-millionaires and up buying rides. But that's a small population, and thus small numbers of units. My marker for space tourism turning into a big business is when there is a Four Seasons (or similar) in orbit with scheduled service (weekly?). When companies are solving the problem of how to get the hotel help into space to serve the needs of the tourists -- then we've got a real business :)

Maybe there's some scale manufacturing that space makes possible, and along with that there are mining opportunities in space. Again a few decades, and not going to pay the bills in the meantime.

High quality internet readily available - that's a business with legs, that is well past Hopium. Could the whole point to point launch and land idea (a faster airline than aircraft) get off the ground? Maybe. I tend to think no, but its at least better than science fiction.

Would launch and land 20 miles out at sea be enough to mitigate the launch noise? Something within an hour by boat (or undersea tube!) so its say 3h from being dropped at the curb at the departure terminal (on land), to being dropped off at the terminal (on land) on the other end - there is a non-trivial volume of that kind of travel that takes a LOT longer right now. Plus that's the sort of step change in functionality that creates new business. Including a decent amount of space tourism - I'd pay $20k for an out and back to Australia with 10 or 15 minutes of coasting through space each way, whether I actually spent time snorkeling while I was in Australia or not. Heck - whether I left the terminal or not (pesky customs).


I think we're seeing something similar about state of the space industry, though some differences in details. I view the crew and supplies deliveries to the ISS as commercial business rather than government. But I'm ok arguing it either way.

Regardless the only company that I see as having a view into the space activities and economics to create a significant change to what humans do in space is SpaceX. Whatever those details and businesses actually turn out to be over the next few decades, today I see the world as SpaceX and powerpoint engineering. And yes, today, that includes providing launch services to the government on fixed price contracts.

I see cost-plus contracting as a core financial impediment to significant change to our access to space, and what we can do there. It creates the wrong financial incentives for doing things like Elon is talking about doing, where driving cost out of the system is always necessary to increasing access and volume of the service.
 
It would revolutionize the business the stuff that we launch today, but would it ever trigger dreams of grand plans in space? Yes, SpaceX would be the dominant launch provider, until somebody else duplicated the approach. Then we'd have some competition, but we'd still be lofting 20 ton payloads. Note that Starlink needs Starship if they're ever going to get those V2 satellites going. That's why I say that the Falcons are great, but they're not what's needed to pursue anything fundamentally new in space. It's also why I wonder how long it will take for companies and governments to start planning based on Starship. It's not rocketry as it has been for the past 40 years.

Your post seemed to primarily be about SpaceX's financial situation, and as such I was addressing the assertion that: "The Falcons are a good product, but they're nothing that excites investors as much as Starship". This is where I think Starship overshadows Falcon 9. The Falcon 9 is revolutionary in that reusability is a paradigm shift in rocketry. It allows for:

- Reducing costs of a KG to space by a factor of 5-10x (this is the cost not price)
-
Maintaining fleet of highly available rockets
- Rapid re-launch
- Reliability (i.e. "flight proven")

If the prospect of Starship enabling all of the above (to an even greater degree), as well as drastically increase the capability for total tonnage to orbit, wasn't on the table, then I suspect Falcon9 would have investor's salivating were SpaceX a public company. But the reality is, rather than running/scaling SpaceX in such a way to maximize profits, instead Elon is plowing every dime back into Starship development. Starlink was as much as a way to help drive the need for launch and thus finance Starship, as it was about providing another internet connectivity option.

scaesare said:
I also suspect that, if Elon wasn't using everything that SpaceX does as a steppingstone to Mars, and given the reusability and relentless pace of innovation & efficiency that he fosters in his companies, SpaceX could be quite profitable if that was the end goal.

How? That's the key question. SpaceX needs customers. Who is going to fork over the trillions of dollars that would make SpaceX into the Mars company or even just the 3X Saudi Aramco cash cow? Who wants to do stuff in space that much and what will they be doing there? I'm not asking for actual answers because all we have today are science fiction fantasies. I want to know what specific companies will be able to finance specific projects in space to make money for themselves and, incidentally, for SpaceX as a launch provider? Hopium doesn't pay bills.

But the point I made is that without the capital intensive endeavor that is the Mars goal, SpaceX would be very profitable with their revolutionary approach. Again, I was addressing your original premise that "So I suspect that SpaceX's finances aren't so hot.". I think we both are in agreement that Starship/Mars is a huge and expensive goal. And to your point, how it will be financed ongoingly is a good question...
 
If the prospect of Starship enabling all of the above (to an even greater degree), as well as drastically increase the capability for total tonnage to orbit, wasn't on the table, then I suspect Falcon9 would have investor's salivating were SpaceX a public company.
I don't know. I look at SpaceX as a Falcon company and wonder if the world would develop the demand for lofting many 20 ton payloads to LEO. Doing anything other than satellites and some science missions would require assembly, as with the ISS. That sort of assembly is daunting. Perhaps having cheaper access via Falcon would inspire people to figure it out, but I don't know.

In contrast, I look at SpaceX as a Starship company and I'm convinced that the world will step up to the plate and come up with some dramatic things to do with it because doing big things in space gets so much easier. They can build everything on the ground, test it on the ground, then throw it into orbit. If they get gutsy enough to assemble things in space then we're starting to talk about some truly massive objects.

Ultimately, it's a question of demand, which why I speak of inspiration. Yes, Falcon 9 can put stuff in orbit cheaply, but will enough people step up to the plate to use it? The Space Shuttle was viewed as an expensive truck to nowhere. Would Falcon 9 be viewed as an inexpensive truck to nowhere?
 
I don't know the financials, but Starlink is looking pretty good as a revenue generator. Presumably it pencils out at some scale where, like most (all?) capital intensive businesses, the financials flip from burning cash like crazy, to generating cash and profit like crazy.
I think that is very likely what is going to happen in just a few years once the current sats are replaced with V2 sats (and then V3?), and it is Starship that will make that happen in an economically feasible manner that no other competitor can come close to matching for the foreseeable future.
My marker for space tourism turning into a big business is when there is a Four Seasons (or similar) in orbit with scheduled service (weekly?).
I think that will happen in about 10 years. I see a specific Starship variant created where each ship is a “hotel module” that is connected to another one in LEO via two different airlocks along one side. No flaps, no TPS, solar panels on two sides. Never returns to Earth. Connect a few of those together and you have a space hotel for a large number of people at a relatively reasonable cost. Weekly flights to orbit with new passengers, crew, and supplies. I think that is a real business.

Count me in.
 
Count me in
At what price point? What do you expect to get for your money?

Just for chuckles, here's an article I ran across while pondering the commercial aspects of space flight. There are some useful numbers in there such as how much food astronauts eat and such.

 
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At what price point? What do you expect to get for your money?
My intent here is not to come across as a rich jerk boasting about his assets, but to answer your question: I would pay $500K for 24 hours in LEO. I don’t know if that will be possible 10 years from now at that price (adjusted for inflation). But I think it might be.

And thinking further about @adiggs comment that I was responding to (post #15 above), the lowest cost way to offer an extended LEO experience might be to make the “space hotel” the Starship that takes you up and then back down. Fit it out for 30 passengers and a few crew (it’s all automated anyway) one of whom is a physician to handle emergencies. No need to build a space station and transfer people back and forth. That adds a massive cost to the operation.

That’s $15 million in paying passengers. Elon wants to launch/land Starships for $10 million. Can SpaceX achieve that 10 years from now? I don’t know. But it could be a viable business. Probably a Starship could accommodate many more people than just 30 for a short time period and that would really change the economics of it.

So then the question is what is the size of the global market at that price point. I would guess multiple tens of thousands. Enough to support one dedicated Starship.
 
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I would pay $500K for 24 hours in LEO
I was doing some math and assumed a week at least. The cost is all in getting up there, really. Once there, stay a while. All it takes is life support. And with half of people experiencing nausea for the first few days (sometimes as long as a week), it would be nice to have time to get past that phase.

But I wasn't expecting a willingness to pay $500,000. Oof.
 
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I was doing some math and assumed a week at least. The cost is all in getting up there, really. Once there, stay a while. All it takes is life support. And with half of people experiencing nausea for the first few days (sometimes as long as a week), it would be nice to have time to get past that phase.
I appreciate that, if using a Starship as the “hotel” vehicle, the majority of the cost is launch and landing. But as much as I want to go to LEO I’m not sure I would want to stay in orbit for a week. There isn’t that much to do if you are just a tourist. But I take your point about many people taking time to get over the nausea.

In any case, I think such a service could generate some serious revenue for the company.
 
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