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Jhm, you mentioned 1 hour of power at 1TWh. However, what happens when more EVs are on the road charging daily at work or home? We need offsetting solar PV equal to 120% of the daily EV demand to make up for it. Some say gasoline has embedded electricity costs, but many refineries generate power locally rather than pull from the grid.

i believe batteries initially will charge at night and dump later in the hot afternoons or early mornings during deep winter. Batteries and the energy losses during round trip operations initially will have more demand on the grid and then slowly lower their impacts. It is about 15-18% round trip losses with grid storage systems. So, solar pv output or steam plant output losses will need to factored into anyone's demand profiles. Someone producing 50kWh on their array daily will store a usable 42kWh and on cloudy days, much less. They will output less to the grid or they end up going off grid. So homeowners actually will increase their 24 hour grid demand as they add batteries, or else they need to add about 20% more modules to their pv array to make up for the losses.

power plants will eventually produce less power as distributed production and storage grows but it surely will take decades to get there at the rate we are seeing PV adoption now. We do need to add strong efforts to go to LED lighting, perhaps, subidizing it at 70% or higher ratios and also keeping up with time of use rate plan deployments so businesses will be incentivised to actually care to replace their lighting fixtures which also, in turn, lowers their AC demand on hot days but then in turn raises their heating needs on cold days as fixtures with LED put off less heat.

the major benefit of storage is somewhat minor up front. A bit less peaker plant spin up. But we add EV and new housing demand every year as well. Watch the EIA data and other tracking organizations. I doubt we get much real visible offset for quite some time, maybe 15 years.
 
If you're a consumer with a large solar array, a basement battery pack and a huge car pack, I would think you'd be inclined to go completely off grid or onto a micro grid quite rapidly. I just don't see a scenario where grid demand at peak increases. People charging at work will likely be under a cheap solar canopy trickle charging once EVs are everywhere. Not to mention that solar going from <1% of supply to 8% essentially wipes out the traditional peak period.
 
Jhm, you mentioned 1 hour of power at 1TWh. However, what happens when more EVs are on the road charging daily at work or home? We need offsetting solar PV equal to 120% of the daily EV demand to make up for it. Some say gasoline has embedded electricity costs, but many refineries generate power locally rather than pull from the grid.

i believe batteries initially will charge at night and dump later in the hot afternoons or early mornings during deep winter. Batteries and the energy losses during round trip operations initially will have more demand on the grid and then slowly lower their impacts. It is about 15-18% round trip losses with grid storage systems. So, solar pv output or steam plant output losses will need to factored into anyone's demand profiles. Someone producing 50kWh on their array daily will store a usable 42kWh and on cloudy days, much less. They will output less to the grid or they end up going off grid. So homeowners actually will increase their 24 hour grid demand as they add batteries, or else they need to add about 20% more modules to their pv array to make up for the losses.

power plants will eventually produce less power as distributed production and storage grows but it surely will take decades to get there at the rate we are seeing PV adoption now. We do need to add strong efforts to go to LED lighting, perhaps, subidizing it at 70% or higher ratios and also keeping up with time of use rate plan deployments so businesses will be incentivised to actually care to replace their lighting fixtures which also, in turn, lowers their AC demand on hot days but then in turn raises their heating needs on cold days as fixtures with LED put off less heat.

the major benefit of storage is somewhat minor up front. A bit less peaker plant spin up. But we add EV and new housing demand every year as well. Watch the EIA data and other tracking organizations. I doubt we get much real visible offset for quite some time, maybe 15 years.

EVs are an interesting issue. It will take much longer to replace the fleet of fossil vehicles than the fleet of fossil power plants.

Solar power alone will have an easy time keeping up with EV demand for energy. Consider that an average EV needs about 10 kWh per day. 3 kW of solar is sufficient from an annual energy point of view. Gobal cumulative solar should reach about 233GW this year and keep growing at about 30% each year for the foreseeable future. Thus, about 70 GW will added in 2016 and this is enough to energize about 23.3M new EVs. Of course, we won't see that level of annual EV sales for quite awhile, probably not in the next 10 years. By 2020, the solar fleet should reach 1TW. At that point adding 30% more is sufficient to energize 100M EVs per year. Thus, by 2020 solar alone would be able to support 100% EV penetration in the auto and light vehicle markets. I personally do not expect to see that penetration level before 2030. So solar is at least 10 years ahead of EVs in energy supply.

The next issue is how to coordinate solar production with EV charging. Basically solar penetration will push electricity spot prices to zero at midday. As EVs become mainstream, 10M new EVS per year, I expect alot of action around harnessing this cheap midday energy. Workplace charging is an obvious solution for daily charging needs. Midday charging could become the norm, beating out overnight parking.

It's going to be great.
 
If you're a consumer with a large solar array, a basement battery pack and a huge car pack, I would think you'd be inclined to go completely off grid or onto a micro grid quite rapidly. I just don't see a scenario where grid demand at peak increases. People charging at work will likely be under a cheap solar canopy trickle charging once EVs are everywhere. Not to mention that solar going from <1% of supply to 8% essentially wipes out the traditional peak period.

The demand style will depend on whether workplaces offer a large scale solution of L1 or L2 for whole parking lots. 200 cars at 3.3KW is nearly a nameplate 700KW at noontime. If all the commuters need 40 miles of recharge, that is 13 kWh times say 300 cars or 4000 kWh of refill. It is bigger than a typical canopy, it would be an acre or more of modules to match the new mid day demand. It may be better to offer 120V 15A across the whole parking lot than anything more. This allows workers not to have to move their cars. An all day draw of hundreds of 1500 W adds up. This energy now is supplied by refined gas at which the plants burn their own oil for electricity to produce the gas. Now, that energy will need to be harnessed from more renewables or demand on existing grid resources. The net benefit is less pollution. But a gallon of oil from the ground from loose oil sources, like Saudi Arabia is extremely energy rich with low energy expense to drill it. It will take a massive scale deployment of renewables to replace that energy. It will also take many people slowing down their fun and working in concerted conservational agreement, and I just don't see that happening with our humanity in its current state. I guess the long plan is to tax or fee energy sources to the point where doing anything of interest needs to be well planned out due to the rising costs to come. Frugal will become the norm (kinda like living in Russia as a typical citizen today). Our kids have a future of lowering their expectations of doing "anything at anytime" like we have today.

I drive electrically around town. I see 99% of the cars around, including the pickups, suvs, cuvs, buses, trucks, rvs and more all burning oil. This is going to take some time. And the only real public face I have seen lately was a new presence in my local Best Buy of lead generators from Solar City trying to get people to consider Solar through their lease programs. What I don't see is widespread installations of solar on warehouses, government buildings, airports, parking garages, malls, scrub land, full land fills and other adaptable acreage. Trying to get regular people to install widespread individual small generators and not pushing for large scale installs (similar to the Walmart roofs in California) seems short sighted. One Walmart roof is like 100 homes and only takes one contract and permit per store versus 100 install permits, team scheduling and other logistics.
 
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Scenario I just thought of. It's Monday, tens of thousands of EV drives arrive at work to a nice sunny morning. All plug in by 9:00am.

In the city, the draw is 3.3KW to 6.6KW times 50,000 cars and couple local superchargers are bustling.

The day warms to 90*F by 10:20am. AC is kicking in all around the area.

A front starts rolling in with some clouds causing nameplate Solar PV to drop from producing full power to 30% of value. Cars are still charging. The aggregate of the cars charging in the lot is greater than the AC and lighting demand of the workplace where the workers are.

What is the typical grid reaction to this? 225,000KW of new charging autos is drawing from the grid which 5 years before was not.

What is needed there are reactive smart-grid charging software on cars to lower their charge rates when signaled by the grid or by sensing local voltage drop (like Tesla does with a voltage drop on an HPWC).
I don't know of any EV on the market other than Tesla that ratchets down charging rates programatically.
The lot full of Volts, i3s, Leafs and so on need to lower their draw when the regional frequency response signal is sent. This won't happen until the fleets build this into their systems and this also won't happen without the grid providers enabling the signal as a standard.

With future time of use charging causing mid-day power at businesses to rise, supplying free plugs may not really due to ongoing costs. This leads to needing larger batteries on board cars (ie. Telsa) over the smaller EV design. "Infrastructure on board" may be the only way that ICE vehicle demand will convert to EV. Needing your workplace to install L1, L2 or other charging will most likely be a non-starter as businesses will start to absorb more costs for power use during mid-day periods.

The need for the $30k and lower 200-mile EV is certainly key to moving people off of ICE/oil and into EV solutions..

One government mandate for this would be to require banks to offer very low priced loans to EV buyers. Not government give-aways or tax credits but guaranteed 0% loans for purchase. The idea is that EVs do last a long time and people should consider buying an EV for a 9-year window that they normally would lease 3 cars in. Maybe offer 0% lease credit for 5 year periods so that buyers have lower monthly fee.

Also needed is 2C+ charging - 120 KW charging of 55 kWh batteries for that 200 mile EV. This of course puts high demand locally on a substation if there were to be a lot of charge points to serve so they should be scattered well. But consumers are very convenience-oriented and even 2C charging with the full charge in 35 minutes seems like it is too long for many when they compare to their ICE experience. However, so few think about the "leave home daily with a full tank if electrons" lifestyle when making this compare.

Anyway - the rambling above is why I think that peaker plants will be needed for at least another decade or more - even at the rate we are installing solar pv, they need to handle the same outlier days as they were built for in the first place. Peaker plants are not needed when mild conditions are in place. They are there for extremes - very hot, very cold and when large generators have to be taken offline. And that is my "USA" view. The real action regarding electric grid challenge is in Asia (China/India primarily) as the population grows, so does the middle class and the flow of "middle class opulence" that comes with enrichening a nation or region. They are building large baseload plants while we in the USA are trying to shut down peaker plants. I think this is far more complex than any of us know. The hard questions must be answered. One particular one - what do we do about population growth? With politics and our religions calling for basically constant growth so both can prosper - this is the big question. Show me one politician advocating for negative population growth through education and common sense?
 
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Coming back strictly to Solar City, even if not its investment angle (hey - it's Sunday) -

Has anyone knowledge of where a Solar City install emplaces its thermocouple/temperature sensor? My system stopped showing a temp readout on September 14. HQ tells me it's a software issue, but I wanted to check the sensor and its connections. For the life of me, however, I cannot locate it. Any clues?
 
Bonaire, I think you are getting lost in too much complexity. Let's be clear. Peaking plants do not exist to produce energy, MWh. Rather they exist to provide marginal power, MW. They are utilized only about 5% of the time, while baseload fossil plants utilized 50% to 70% of the time. Batteries provide power regulation more efficiently than peakers, both +MW and -MW, but they do not produce any energy, only store energy produced elsewhere. So if you base sufficient battery capacity, any shortfall in energy is easily met by increasing baseload utilization just a few percent. Baseload fossil plants are sufficiently dispatchable to assure that batteries maintain an adequate reserve of energy to fulfill whatever grid stabilization they are needed for. Why would you fire up a gas peaker at 18 c/kWh to recharge batteries when there is sufficient capacity in combined cycle gas plant at 6 c/kWh to do the job.

So even if we ignore all the complexities of intermittent renewables and EVs, we see that just managing thermal electric sources when batteries become cheap enough they make peaking plants obsolete. Baseload+batteries will have better economics than baseload+peakers. Batteries are declining in price and increasing in performance. So eventually batteries will cross that threshold where they are cheap enough to halt all new construction of peaking plants. The question is when. Consideration of renewables, aggregation of DERs, EVs, smart load devices, etc. factor into the timing of this disruption, but not its underlying inevitability.

For example, wind is at a levelized range of 2 to 4 c/kWh, utility solar at 3 to 5 c/kWh, and CCNG at 6 to 8 c/kWh. So opportunity to firm up wind and solar with batteries is greater than for CCNG or coal. Thus renewables get batteries to economic tipping points a little sooner than thermal baseload alone.

Given Tesla's price for Powerpacks, my view is that the only barrier that remains is simply manufacturing capacity. In 2018 the Gigafactory should be able to put out 5 to 10 GWh of Powerpacks. Moreover, other battery makers will be racing to beat those prices and production levels. Since the new peaker plant market is only about 6GW, total grid battery production in 2018 will come damn close to saturating this market and the new economics will make it very hard to pencil out any plans for new gas peakers. So there will still be a few plants built after 2018, but they will have been projects planned and financed prior to 2018. So that's my personal speculation. Remember that utilities will basically be looking for ways to increase baseload utilization while decreasing the cost of providing peak power. Batteries fit the bill, while gas peakers do nothing to improve baseload utilization. This makes batteries the new default choice, so that gas peakers are only considered in rare situations where there is a shortage of thermal baseload capacity.

How does a company like SolarCity factor into this scenario. First, rooftop solar with net metering is putting surplus power onto the grid at midday. This is contribution to a situation that is undermining the utilization of both thermal baseload and peaking plants. Even so, the utilization of both are highest in July and August. Thus, solar still has much more potential to drive down fossil generation in those peak summer months. But in the fall and spring, thermal utilization is at its lowest while solar production is pretty high. So close to equinoxes is when spot markets are most likely to see negative spot prices. At such times thermal baseload is literally paying for utilization. The grids most need batteries when they risk oversupply that take spot prices below variable operating costs. Batteries are able to absorb this surplus power and provide price support to the spot market (something peaking plants cannot do). But the question becomes who is willing to invest in these batteries and provide this valuable service to the grid. This opens up a second business opportunity for SolarCity. SolarCity and their customers are willing to invest and site grid tied batteries. This enables distributed solar to retain it's midday surplus, easing the risk of oversupply in the spot market. Moreover this stored solar can be used in the evening to ease the risk of overdemand at that time. Thus, adding batteries to distributed solar will help stabilize the grid in a way that is beneficial to baseload thermal capacity , but is disruptive to peaking capacity. The stabilizing impact of distributed batteries can be harness to even greater economic efficiency is players like SolarCity are allowed to aggregate thesee resources and sell service to utilities or if time varying pricing plans allow DER owners to essentially trade in real time. Whether through aggregation or micromarket trading, SolarCity can leverage distributed assets to create additional revenue streams for their customers and the company itself while improving the economic efficiency of the entire grid.

The upshot for other grid participants is that SolarCity and its customers are providing services to enhance grid asset utilization at a price lower than financing and installing these batteries directly. This is not so much a statement about where it is most efficient to place batteries in the grid as it is a necessary condition of of an efficient market. Essentially, suppose a nuclear power plant found it was more economical to finance an build out their own battery array to improve the dispatchability of the plant. If it were more economical to do so, they would. This option for all utility players to add their own batteries places an upper bound on a market price for aggregated distributed storage services. Batteries in distribution also create value to their owners that the grid cannot provide, such as back up power when the utility connection is lost. So distributed battery owners do not require participation in grid services to fully compensate for the cost of the asset, but they are willing to offer surplus capacity in trade. Thus, there are opportunities for storage services to be offered to the grid at lower cost than for utilities to build out this capacity on their own. So this too impacts how quickly batteries can put peaking plants out of business. It the situation was merely replacing gas peakers with battery peakers that would imply a certain critical cost threshold for battery prices. But if the alternative is gas peakers versus aggregated distributed storage, that very well could imply reaching a battery tipping point much sooner. But this depends heavily on the regulatory framework to allow such competion. Regulators should be concerned, however, that blocking aggregated batteries runs the risk of pushing the grid to pay too much for storage or alternatives such as peaking capacity. The very serious risk is that these economic inefficiencies will be pushed onto ratepayers, which is unfair to all and actually induces a death spiral scenario. In my opinion the only way PUCs can be sure that ratepayers are not being charged too much for grid stabilization is too allow distributed battery owners to participate in competitive markets for these grid services. So while utilities have argued that distributed solar pushes certain grid costs on to other ratepayers, an even stronger argument that barring distributed battery owners from participating in and benefiting from grid service markets imposes higher grid costs on ratepayers. Essentially, the argument against NEM has been that it allows solar owners to use the grid for free storage services. That may well be, but the tables turn once solar owners are in a position to offer cheap storage services to the grid. A refusal of utilities to make economic use of cheap distributed storage would amount to an imposition of above market costs onto all ratepayers. Regulators should not allow utilities to get away with that, nor would that even be in the long run interest of the utility. The utilities have an excellent opportunity to negotiate arrangements that would eneble them to secure cheap storage, improve baseload utilization, virtually eliminate net energy metering, and provide lower rates to all their customers. In the long run, utilities have to figure out how to offer lower rates at a profit, and striking the right sort of deals with companies like SolarCity and customers with DERs can do that. Unfortunately, utilities that expect to keep turning a profit from their peaking fleets are going to find this a bitter pill to swallow. The sooner that utilities come to see that peaking plants are now obsolete, the better it will go for them. They may still be able to find willing buyers for these plants, independent power producers willing to bet against battery disruption, but each year delay will fetch lower prices.

So I think SolarCity is right in the center of this transormation. They are certainly working to find innovative ways to bring this value to the grid. The question remains to what degree are utilities and regulators willing to embrace these new models. In the long run, this will get sorted out, but certain grid players could dig their heels in and make this more costly for everyone.
 
Turning buildings hybrid-electric | Watch the video - Yahoo Finance

Here's what we're talking about with batteries disruption peaker plants. The office buildings are creating primary value from peak shaving and they are participating in a secondary revenue stream by selling grid services.

The male newscaster is a real duffus. He seems to have the idea that the Powerpacks are displacing the ordinary commercial use of the building.
 
These Three Trends Have Radically Redefined the Energy Market - Bloomberg Business

-1x-1.png


This slide indicates that utility-scale solar would only compete with natural gaz starting 2035. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole presentation is here: http://about.bnef.com/content/uploads/sites/4/2015/10/Liebreich_BNEF-Summit-London.pdf
 
Something is not right with these LCOE calculations. Already in the US we have PPAs for utility solar below $40/MWh. Even backing out the 30% ITC, this is $56/MWh on an unsubsidized basis.

I simply cannot trust an analyst that is making pro forma assumption so far off from actually current prices. These cost are easily off by a factor of 2 to 3. There are vested interests in trying to convince regulators, investors, and ordinary people that solar power won't be cost competitive for decades to come. So I suspect an anti-renewable bias here.

These Three Trends Have Radically Redefined the Energy Market - Bloomberg Business

View attachment 97750

This slide indicates that utility-scale solar would only compete with natural gaz starting 2035. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole presentation is here: http://about.bnef.com/content/uploads/sites/4/2015/10/Liebreich_BNEF-Summit-London.pdf
 
Hawaii Regulators Shut Down HECOs Net Metering Program | Greentech Media

Wow, the Hawaii PUC just ended net energy metering. Residents can sign up self-supply option and receive nothing for energy sent to HECO. Or they can enroll in grid-supply option and get wholesale rates from 15 to 28 c/kWh depending on the time of export. In both cases there is an extra $25 per month to stay connected to HECO.

I think this gives SolarCity free reign to sell Powerwalls into the state. Either option or the third off grid option make Powerwall ownership economical. This move by HECO will also enrage Hawaiians. In all, I think HECO will prove to be a poster child for grid defection.

It just got real.
 
Hawaii Regulators Shut Down HECOs Net Metering Program | Greentech Media

Wow, the Hawaii PUC just ended net energy metering. Residents can sign up self-supply option and receive nothing for energy sent to HECO. Or they can enroll in grid-supply option and get wholesale rates from 15 to 28 c/kWh depending on the time of export. In both cases there is an extra $25 per month to stay connected to HECO.

I think this gives SolarCity free reign to sell Powerwalls into the state. Either option or the third off grid option make Powerwall ownership economical. This move by HECO will also enrage Hawaiians. In all, I think HECO will prove to be a poster child for grid defection.

It just got real.

Fascinating, but also real spooky I would say.

I am strongly against full-scale real-world experimenting like this. People matter, more than corporations or utilities. They deserve better than to be used as guinea pigs or grease in a creaking cogwheel. (Here's cheering for a spectacular grinding crash for HECO)

The outcome will be interesting but the experiment is unethical IMO.
 
Interesting developments in Hawaii. But in the end, as they say, all roads lead to Rome.

(Meaning distributed solar+storage is coming regardless of regulatory framework, regulations can only somewhat affect the pace at which it takes over in places like Hawaii)
 
The sun is so reliable in HI that it would now make the most sense to have a solar array and large battery back to take you off grid. Kind of ridiculous to screw over the consumer this way in HI, but once there's a zero-down financed array/battery option it'll be game over. All they're doing is accelerating the momentum to move off grid.
 
Interesting developments in Hawaii. But in the end, as they say, all roads lead to Rome.

(Meaning distributed solar+storage is coming regardless of regulatory framework, regulations can only somewhat affect the pace at which it takes over in places like Hawaii)
Can someone help me understand what is it that makes these incumbents fight tooth-and-nail for maintaining the status quo in the face of overwhelming evidence that their customers are leaving them behind? Couldn't they instead use their existing advantages to claim the renewable market for themselves? Why don't they go into the distributed solar and storage business themselves? I mean, if I were a monopolist, I would try to maintain that monopoly with some fresh thinking, instead of bitching and moaning about technical difficulties while the little guys are eating my lunch. Are these guys so blind that they don't understand they will disappear, maybe not quite over night, but certainly over a few sunny years?

I understand why a GM or Toyota have trouble reorienting their ships, what with the dealer networks, engineering issues, and huge production capacity invested in old tech. But in the case of energy producers, there is nothing I can think of that's inherently stopping them from jumping on the bandwagon, other than their own arrogance. What am I missing?
 
Can someone help me understand what is it that makes these incumbents fight tooth-and-nail for maintaining the status quo in the face of overwhelming evidence that their customers are leaving them behind? Couldn't they instead use their existing advantages to claim the renewable market for themselves? Why don't they go into the distributed solar and storage business themselves? I mean, if I were a monopolist, I would try to maintain that monopoly with some fresh thinking, instead of bitching and moaning about technical difficulties while the little guys are eating my lunch. Are these guys so blind that they don't understand they will disappear, maybe not quite over night, but certainly over a few sunny years?

I understand why a GM or Toyota have trouble reorienting their ships, what with the dealer networks, engineering issues, and huge production capacity invested in old tech. But in the case of energy producers, there is nothing I can think of that's inherently stopping them from jumping on the bandwagon, other than their own arrogance. What am I missing?

No to your question, I couldn't explain.

One guess is that high-to middle management have a short time span in which to maximise their retirement or parachute package and disregard pretty much every other aspect. Also, they are trained into a certain way of thinking, which is being reinforced by a coherent pack/team/tribe because non-conformists are made unwelcome.

Again, I doubt anyone really knows for sure - and probably least of all those in the lead, who have the most to lose by rocking the boat; or they just don't want to know.

// Armchair psych
 
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