Solar Roof, big price increase

[navydoc001]

A

All I can say is good luck. Tesla!svworkmanship is part and parcel of their inexperience and being ill prepared in the first place. They’ll just wear you down with. Get ready to face a morass of Byzantine proportions.

Time is already wearing us down. Tesla has been off-site since 1 July due to the need to rent and safety train on a scissor lift. So our roof, while electrically functional, is not complete. We and Tesla are currently expecting the first week of Aug to be back on site to finish up.

 

[jimm01]

Oh ... it's going to get worse. Just off center, on the bottom of the photo, you can see where the original gutters met the side of the house ... the stone facing was cut around the gutters. The new gutters are 6 inches while the old ones were 3 inches. I have no expectation that the roofers are going to be able to figure this out. This is the same crew that did the tear-off and dry-in. The same crew that did the sealant work shown in the picture.

Also, the 6” gutter will need to hang hang lower.

As far as before goes, was there any counter flashing? I don’t know why they needed to use such tall flashing for the RoR panels.

What’s the inverse of putting a silk shirt on a pig? Here’s a thought, send it to GAF let them have a chuckle at your expense.

 

[navydoc001]

Also, the 6” gutter will need to hang hang lower.

As far as before goes, was there any counter flashing? I don’t know why they needed to use such tall flashing for the RoR panels.

What’s the inverse of putting a silk shirt on a pig? Here’s a thought, send it to GAF let them have a chuckle at your expense.

"I don’t know why they needed to use such tall flashing for the RoR panels." Interestingly, that is what the Tesla guy said the first time he saw it.

No counter flashing originally. The flashing from the cricket originally over-lapped the shingles by 3 or 4 inches. The roofers cut that off, which is why that flashing is now bent and wavy.

Another discussion that I have been having with Tesla and the roofers is the second story wall behind that cricket. The roofers cut the siding 3" up the wall and removed the J channel. Tesla has already told me they are not sure how they are going to address that. I suspect that if I had not said anything or know how this works, they would have let the cut siding ends hang in the breeze.

This ultimately comes down to the sub-contract roofers just butchered the job in the name of speed and Tesla does not have any experienced exterior guys to help them avoid these issues.

 

[jimm01]

"I don’t know why they needed to use such tall flashing for the RoR panels." Interestingly, that is what the Tesla guy said the first time he saw it.

No counter flashing originally. The flashing from the cricket originally over-lapped the shingles by 3 or 4 inches. The roofers cut that off, which is why that flashing is now bent and wavy.

Another discussion that I have been having with Tesla and the roofers is the second story wall behind that cricket. The roofers cut the siding 3" up the wall and removed the J channel. Tesla has already told me they are not sure how they are going to address that. I suspect that if I had not said anything or know how this works, they would have let the cut siding ends hang in the breeze.

This ultimately comes down to the sub-contract roofers just butchered the job in the name of speed and Tesla does not have any experienced exterior guys to help them avoid these issues.

Since you know what the problem is you must be well aware the caulk will eventually fail. More roofs leak around chimneys this way then I care to remember. Moreover, it usually happens slowly over time and by the time it reveals itself considerable damage has already occurred. I guess the flashing was originally behind the stone and over the shingles. What needs to be done now is a groove needs to be cut into the stone to accommodate counter flashing. It can be on a diagonal or stepped. Since the run is so short I would cut it diagonally.

 

[navydoc001]

Since you know what the problem is you must be well aware the caulk will eventually fail. More roofs leak around chimneys this way then I care to remember. Moreover, it usually happens slowly over time and by the time it reveals itself considerable damage has already occurred. I guess the flashing was originally behind the stone and over the shingles. What needs to be done now is a groove needs to be cut into the stone to accommodate counter flashing. It can be on a diagonal or stepped. Since the run is so short I would cut it diagonally.

Yeah ... this part of the process is somewhat painful. We went into this with the understanding that we are "crash test dummies" in a sense. There are a fair number of things that need to be worked out on Tesla's side. But this type of knowledge (general home exterior), this casual / nonexistent relationship with craftsmanship is annoying.

Properly applied caulk fails over time. This is not even close to properly applied. Yes, the original flashing is behind the stone.

I agree with your assessment, diagonal cut for the counter-flashing. Also need to correctly face, seal and secure the cricket.

 

[jimm01]

Yeah ... this part of the process is somewhat painful. We went into this with the understanding that we are "crash test dummies" in a sense. There are a fair number of things that need to be worked out on Tesla's side. But this type of knowledge (general home exterior), this casual / nonexistent relationship with craftsmanship is annoying.

Properly applied caulk fails over time. This is not even close to properly applied. Yes, the original flashing is behind the stone.

I agree with your assessment, diagonal cut for the counter-flashing. Also need to correctly face, seal and secure the cricket.

Unless a home is a simple gable or hip roof (no combination of the two, dormers, head walls, sidewalls, chimneys, etc,) it’s pretty much custom. Looking around the county the only place where I saw a majority of these types of roofs was retirement communities and trailer parks.

I was in Hammonton NJ, where there is a mix of homes dating back over a century. I didn’t see a single one. Many these houses had additions that would look bad if not done properly. Almost any roof, and associated siding is custom. So the question is just what were Tesla’s test cases and who did the inspections?

My guess is there are many customers out there with jobs that are hacked. Some might be only in appearance other structurally defective. What gets me I contacted NJ DCA (inspections) and the AGs office it appears they are just shills to the industry.

I’ve worked my problem up to the regions head of operations and his boss in Las Vagas and I got crap for a result. My problems are both structural and appearance. The worse being above the front entrance. Most homes a lot of time energy and money is spent to make a homes appear a standout from the street, which is where a Tesla employee comment my house looked good when I pointed out the workmanship issues (I’m 200 ft off the road). The motto should be Tesla *sugar* Shacks, they look good from Crew Dragon.

Suffice it to say I’m disgusted with them, I will not pay them until the job is completed to my satisfaction. Tesla is threatening my credit rating and I’m at risk of loosing my federal tax credit. We are now pats seven months and there is no end in sight.

Finally, my advice to anyone who had a Tesla Solar Roof installed or who is purchasing a home with one, have the roof, siding and flashing throughly inspected. The problem is, being glass it’s not easily accessed. Tesla knows it’s a problem fixing these types of issues and is why they can’t, or won’t, do the right thing (Musk’s own words substantiates this). Since it was finished more people have been on my roof than have climbed Mount Fuji.

 

[navydoc001]

Unless a home is a simple gable or hip roof (no combination of the two, dormers, head walls, sidewalls, chimneys, etc,) it’s pretty much custom. Looking around the county the only place where I saw a majority of these types of roofs was retirement communities and trailer parks.

I was in Hammonton NJ, where there is a mix of homes dating back over a century. I didn’t see a single one. Many these houses had additions that would look bad if not done properly. Almost any roof, and associated siding is custom. So the question is just what were Tesla’s test cases and who did the inspections?

My guess is there are many customers out there with jobs that are hacked. Some might be only in appearance other structurally defective. What gets me I contacted NJ DCA (inspections) and the AGs office it appears they are just shills to the industry.

I’ve worked my problem up to the regions head of operations and his boss in Las Vagas and I got crap for a result. My problems are both structural and appearance. The worse being above the front entrance. Most homes a lot of time energy and money is spent to make a homes appear a standout from the street, which is where a Tesla employee comment my house looked good when I pointed out the workmanship issues (I’m 200 ft off the road). The motto should be Tesla *sugar* Shacks, they look good from Crew Dragon.

Suffice it to say I’m disgusted with them, I will not pay them until the job is completed to my satisfaction. Tesla is threatening my credit rating and I’m at risk of loosing my federal tax credit. We are now pats seven months and there is no end in sight.

Finally, my advice to anyone who had a Tesla Solar Roof installed or who is purchasing a home with one, have the roof, siding and flashing throughly inspected. The problem is, being glass it’s not easily accessed. Tesla knows it’s a problem fixing these types of issues and is why they can’t, or won’t, do the right thing (Musk’s own words substantiates this). Since it was finished more people have been on my roof than have climbed Mount Fuji.

Very sorry to hear this, jimm01.

"My guess is there are many customers out there with jobs that are hacked." I suspect that you are right.

As this progresses, I keep posting updates here.

 

[h2ofun]

Very sorry to hear this, jimm01.

"My guess is there are many customers out there with jobs that are hacked." I suspect that you are right.

As this progresses, I keep posting updates here.

The whole technical idea of these solar roofs when I looked at them over the years just did not make sense, IMO. And with posts like these, I sure glad I just went with a KISS roof, and then KISS panels. May not look as cool, but both are SO easy to fix with standard labor from anyone! Sometimes getting the latest and greatest, and being a early adopter is not all that great of an idea. But clearly I seem to be in the minority

 

[jimm01]

The whole technical idea of these solar roofs when I looked at them over the years just did not make sense, IMO. And with posts like these, I sure glad I just went with a KISS roof, and then KISS panels. May not look as cool, but both are SO easy to fix with standard labor from anyone! Sometimes getting the latest and greatest, and being a early adopter is not all that great of an idea. But clearly I seem to be in the minority

The issue is it can be done correctly. It just takes experience and a bit more care (time). Moreover, Tesla’s answer to address cost doesn’t really address either. Tesla took what could have been the introduction of a functional and architecturally satisfying product (albeit expensive) and turned it into a shitshow. It seems with each subsequent decision rather than pull back, reassess, learn, and fix what’s broke they double down on stupid.

 

[h2ofun]

The issue is it can be done correctly. It just takes experience and a bit more care (time). Moreover, Tesla’s answer to address cost doesn’t really address either. Tesla took what could have been the introduction of a functional and architecturally satisfying product (albeit expensive) and turned it into a shitshow. It seems with each subsequent decision rather than pull back, reassess, learn, and fix what’s broke they double down on stupid.

Possible, but again, IMO, technically, not even 100% sure it can be done long term "correctly", let along the potential repair issues decades from now. Roofs always need to be repaired, and these will not be easy, even if done "right". I am not that glad to let others be the test cases. And over years, if it survives, great.
I still think the more interesting take away if roof designs! Folks have been making all these complex fancy roofs for years, not no focus on nice long south flat facings surfaces for solar panels, or roofs. I know if I were to build a new house now, I would be starting from the roof design, to make the best it can be for solar, and work down.

 

[jimm01]

Possible, but again, IMO, technically, not even 100% sure it can be done long term "correctly", let along the potential repair issues decades from now. Roofs always need to be repaired, and these will not be easy, even if done "right". I am not that glad to let others be the test cases. And over years, if it survives, great.
I still think the more interesting take away if roof designs! Folks have been making all these complex fancy roofs for years, not no focus on nice long south flat facings surfaces for solar panels, or roofs. I know if I were to build a new house now, I would be starting from the roof design, to make the best it can be for solar, and work down.

Not a single roof I ever installed needed to be repaired unless you include a falling tree. This is known and understandable risk. Workmanship issues of this magnitude are the result of incompetence and indifference. This is fixable and their presence in any human endeavor is a sign of impending disaster.

 

[h2ofun]

Not a single roof I ever installed needed to be repaired unless you include a falling tree. This is known and understandable risk. Workmanship issues of this magnitude are the result of incompetence and indifference. This is fixable and their presence in any human endeavor is a sign of impending disaster.

VERY hard to get qualified labor now, and getting worse!!

 

[navydoc001]

VERY hard to get qualified labor now, and getting worse!!

So, my issue is that there is nothing wrong, structurally or technically, with the roof. That is, the panels, or in my case the shingles, the electrical components or the work involved in installing this system. What has been inexcusable is the very basic work related to vinyl siding, stone and mortar, and the use of sealants. All of these things are well understood. Tesla has not taken control of this work in a manner that fits the roof system they are installing. It's been a tough conversation to have with the on-site PM. He sees the issues, but has not been able to work out a resolution up or down the chain from him.

 

[h2ofun]

So, my issue is that there is nothing wrong, structurally or technically, with the roof. That is, the panels, or in my case the shingles, the electrical components or the work involved in installing this system. What has been inexcusable is the very basic work related to vinyl siding, stone and mortar, and the use of sealants. All of these things are well understood. Tesla has not taken control of this work in a manner that fits the roof system they are installing. It's been a tough conversation to have with the on-site PM. He sees the issues, but has not been able to work out a resolution up or down the chain from him.

Same comment applies, qualified labor anywhere!

 

[jimm01]

So, my issue is that there is nothing wrong, structurally or technically, with the roof. That is, the panels, or in my case the shingles, the electrical components or the work involved in installing this system. What has been inexcusable is the very basic work related to vinyl siding, stone and mortar, and the use of sealants. All of these things are well understood. Tesla has not taken control of this work in a manner that fits the roof system they are installing. It's been a tough conversation to have with the on-site PM. He sees the issues, but has not been able to work out a resolution up or down the chain from him.

Not PA but in NJ chimney flashing is a structural issue. You could call local code enforcement but this may just become a bigger can of worms.

Also in NJ there is an implied warranty of workmanship. This would be a civil action and would most likely go to arbitration.

My biggest problem with Tesla is the inability to reach a decision maker; the disconnect between internal organizational units; and poor quality of workmanship. So a solution is late, sloppy, and everyone gets lied to.

 

[FlatSix911]

Tesla's solar division asks employees to scour social media for complaints about both the company and Elon Musk, trying to get customers to delete their posts, former employees say

A former Tesla Energy employee told Insider that a team of nine staff hunted for complaints specifically aimed at CEO Elon Musk.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[slcasner]

When I placed my order for a 6.02kW solar roof last Thanksgiving, the estimated price was $65K. For months there was no action on my order, in part because my roof has a projection over a bay window where the roof edge is angled other than 90°, which the PA said they could not do. Finally I did get a design proposal two weeks ago, so apparently they did implement a solution. Based on the experiences in this thread, I expected the actual price to be higher since my all-hip roof has a total of 21 ridge and valley line segments on an H-shaped house. And it was: $117K. I saw there was more space available on my roof so I asked the PA about the cost to increase the solar area and was told about $2K per kW. Therefore increasing the power by 2kW would reduce the cost per kW significantly, and since increasing the capacity of a solar roof later would be much harder than with panels, it makes sense to plan for future increased need due to conversion from gas to electric heat and appliances.

Imagine my (pleasant) surprise when the price of the revised design proposal for an 8.77kW system decreased to $107K, 9% less that the first design (these prices all before tax credit). Looking at where the cost reduction came from, I see that the non-solar roof material cost decreased more than the solar roof material cost increased -- are the metal tiles more expensive than the solar tiles? That seems unlikely. Similarly, the bulk of the reduced price came from the reduced non-solar roof labor cost. So I wonder if the calculations were incorrect in the earlier design (and I hope not in the new one).

Curiously, the new design includes a small line item for Alternative Roofing that the earlier design did not. I see in the Legend on the Your System Layout page that Alternative Roofing is indicated by areas in a light gray color. The only portion of the layout shown in that color is a triangle where we have a shade sail installed. I will take down the shade sail while this project is under construction, so it should not have any bearing on the cost. I just hope this line item does not imply that some alternative roofing method other than tiles will be used on some portion of my roof such as over the bay window. It would be nice if I could the newly assigned PA would answer the phone or email so I could find out.

My other concern is whether the larger PV size will be approved. The previous PA assured me that I could have any size my roof would support, but I've seen discussions in this forum regarding a limit of 120% of current usage. The 8.77kW design shows a 310% energy offset based on my utility bill, but that is not meaningful because I have an existing PV system that will be replaced. It would likely still be over 120%, though.

 

[Fred42]

When I placed my order for a 6.02kW solar roof last Thanksgiving, the estimated price was $65K. For months there was no action on my order, in part because my roof has a projection over a bay window where the roof edge is angled other than 90°, which the PA said they could not do. Finally I did get a design proposal two weeks ago, so apparently they did implement a solution. Based on the experiences in this thread, I expected the actual price to be higher since my all-hip roof has a total of 21 ridge and valley line segments on an H-shaped house. And it was: $117K. I saw there was more space available on my roof so I asked the PA about the cost to increase the solar area and was told about $2K per kW. Therefore increasing the power by 2kW would reduce the cost per kW significantly, and since increasing the capacity of a solar roof later would be much harder than with panels, it makes sense to plan for future increased need due to conversion from gas to electric heat and appliances.

Imagine my (pleasant) surprise when the price of the revised design proposal for an 8.77kW system decreased to $107K, 9% less that the first design (these prices all before tax credit). Looking at where the cost reduction came from, I see that the non-solar roof material cost decreased more than the solar roof material cost increased -- are the metal tiles more expensive than the solar tiles? That seems unlikely. Similarly, the bulk of the reduced price came from the reduced non-solar roof labor cost. So I wonder if the calculations were incorrect in the earlier design (and I hope not in the new one).

Curiously, the new design includes a small line item for Alternative Roofing that the earlier design did not. I see in the Legend on the Your System Layout page that Alternative Roofing is indicated by areas in a light gray color. The only portion of the layout shown in that color is a triangle where we have a shade sail installed. I will take down the shade sail while this project is under construction, so it should not have any bearing on the cost. I just hope this line item does not imply that some alternative roofing method other than tiles will be used on some portion of my roof such as over the bay window. It would be nice if I could the newly assigned PA would answer the phone or email so I could find out.

My other concern is whether the larger PV size will be approved. The previous PA assured me that I could have any size my roof would support, but I've seen discussions in this forum regarding a limit of 120% of current usage. The 8.77kW design shows a 310% energy offset based on my utility bill, but that is not meaningful because I have an existing PV system that will be replaced. It would likely still be over 120%, though.

My Tesla solar panel order in PA is at 128% of usage.

 

[navydoc001]

My Tesla solar panel order in PA is at 128% of usage.

Man, I wish. Due to the various hips and valleys, we will only make it to 60% (estimated).

 

[K1Special]

When I placed my order for a 6.02kW solar roof last Thanksgiving, the estimated price was $65K. For months there was no action on my order, in part because my roof has a projection over a bay window where the roof edge is angled other than 90°, which the PA said they could not do. Finally I did get a design proposal two weeks ago, so apparently they did implement a solution. Based on the experiences in this thread, I expected the actual price to be higher since my all-hip roof has a total of 21 ridge and valley line segments on an H-shaped house. And it was: $117K. I saw there was more space available on my roof so I asked the PA about the cost to increase the solar area and was told about $2K per kW. Therefore increasing the power by 2kW would reduce the cost per kW significantly, and since increasing the capacity of a solar roof later would be much harder than with panels, it makes sense to plan for future increased need due to conversion from gas to electric heat and appliances.

Imagine my (pleasant) surprise when the price of the revised design proposal for an 8.77kW system decreased to $107K, 9% less that the first design (these prices all before tax credit). Looking at where the cost reduction came from, I see that the non-solar roof material cost decreased more than the solar roof material cost increased -- are the metal tiles more expensive than the solar tiles? That seems unlikely. Similarly, the bulk of the reduced price came from the reduced non-solar roof labor cost. So I wonder if the calculations were incorrect in the earlier design (and I hope not in the new one).

Curiously, the new design includes a small line item for Alternative Roofing that the earlier design did not. I see in the Legend on the Your System Layout page that Alternative Roofing is indicated by areas in a light gray color. The only portion of the layout shown in that color is a triangle where we have a shade sail installed. I will take down the shade sail while this project is under construction, so it should not have any bearing on the cost. I just hope this line item does not imply that some alternative roofing method other than tiles will be used on some portion of my roof such as over the bay window. It would be nice if I could the newly assigned PA would answer the phone or email so I could find out.

My other concern is whether the larger PV size will be approved. The previous PA assured me that I could have any size my roof would support, but I've seen discussions in this forum regarding a limit of 120% of current usage. The 8.77kW design shows a 310% energy offset based on my utility bill, but that is not meaningful because I have an existing PV system that will be replaced. It would likely still be over 120%, though.

From what I have seen alternative roofing means comp shingles.