El joe
Active Member
Agreed. If you do a filter for Chademo and another for Tesla Superchargers on PlugShare, there are far more Chademo chargers available. And they’re not going to remove the existing ones in the near future.
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Setec CCS to Tesla Adapter
- Thread starter Boeingpilot
- Start date
These are all basically nonsense.
People are talking about this as if it's VW for VW. But this is all of the electric car industry who isn't named Nissan. CCS is the ongoing charging standard with a path forward that almost all car manufacturers are using. CHAdeMO isn't.
Well, it still is. It's just a debate of how quickly or slowly that dying is taking place. Granted, Japan is different though. It will hold on there for a very long time.
PDX-Y
Member
I don't think that's a helpful analysis. EA definitely aims to support its owners vehicles, which means it's going to favor CCS (in the sense of supporting less charging for Leafs) for the same reason that Tesla-installed superchargers favor their own cars (by supporting nothing else at all!). At the end of the day the US has an unregulated fast charging infrastructure, which means (1) we have to suffer with compatibility hell but (2) the competition has resulted in a really fast buildout on both sides (well, except CHAdeMO -- even Nissan is moving to CCS). Europe and Korea did this better by mandating standards (even if they picked the worst one), but that's not the American Way.
masotime
Member
This is actually what I meant by my comment - perhaps “promoting over” is not a good choice of words, but since VW vehicles all use CCS as far as I know, it makes sense for them to build stations supporting that.
Overall the biggest plus for CCS I think is the support for 150kW+ charging speeds - it’s just unfortunate that the Setec adapter doesn’t allow us to achieve those speeds, especially with the 3/Y.
VW AG has put other inlets in other markets (e.g. CHAdeMO on Japanese market e-Golf). The issue I have is that Electrify America was formed as part of VW's dieselgate penalties. They got to decide how to spend their/our $2 billion in penalty $ to build out a charging network. They were required to be brand neutral in advertising and outreach but apparently not really in terms of infrastructure.
What other major non-Tesla US DC FC provider has across their whole network such a stilted proportion of CCS vs. CHAdeMO? Do you think we'd be arguing about this if they deployed an even ratio or relatively even ratio? And, what if they tried just as hard for high-powered CHAdeMO (instead of crippled to 50 kW) as they did CCS? What if they installed 5 to 19 CHAdeMO at each site and 1 CCS? And, what if the CHAdeMO were 100+ kW while CCS were 50?
Don't you think that their actions ended up being an influence on other automakers besides NIssan? I agreed with this from 2012: SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. People felt that CCS was created in order to slow down Nissan. It worked and even forced their hand w/Ariya in the US and Europe.
There are 172 electric vehicles in the "EV Database" -- albeit not a complete list... Of those, 168 use some form of CCS for DC Fast charging.
The remaining 4 are Nissan and 1 Lexus vehicle. Meanwhile the other 36 manufacturers are using CCS... so why shouldn't CCS have more availability than CHAdeMO?
I've never heard of that site before. Most of those vehicles do not exist in the US and the ones in Europe use Combo2/CCS2 that doesn't exist in the US. At quick glance, many are counted multiple times, skewing the count in a huge way. Federal Tax Credits for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Cars can give you an idea of what EVs and PHEVs exist in the US. Some can't even be DC FCed at all.
You may as well exclude Tesla for CCS for the purposes of the US since they have yet to release a vehicle in the US w/CCS and their official CCS adapter here.
The installed base of CHAdeMO vehicles in the US (not including Teslas) for ages exceeded that of CCS-capable vehicles. Some of those automakers who put on CCS in some parts put on CHAdeMO in others (e.g. e-Golf in Japan, i3 in Japan, Mercedes EQC in Japan).
If you want to include cars not in the US, here are some EVs – Chademo Association.
If you want to limit things to just the US... then "the Nissan LEAF and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV are the only models still sold in the US with the CHAdeMO standard." Which just makes the point stronger... There's no reason for the DCFC public charging "market" to promote a wide distribution of CHAdeMO charging stations for 2 models of cars.
I have to wonder if there was a supported first-party Tesla adaptor if Tesla drivers would have as much concern for Leaf drivers being stuck on Chademo with fewer plugs per station, especially given Leaf sales are ~10-15k/year. Tesla put about 500,000 new cars on the road last year, so if 2.5% of them bought the Chademo adaptor, then there's more Tesla Chademo users added in 2020 than Leaf Chademo users...
The first point is true now. But, previously, the gen 1 Soul EV had CHAdeMO, as did the i-MiEV. And, every single Tesla sold in the US from Model S onwards can use CHAdeMO w/their official CHAdeMO adapter.
Prior to Model 3 passing it, the best selling BEV in the US (in terms of cumulative sales) was the Leaf. Looks like Nissan Leaf cumulative sales in the US Is north of 150K units per US: Nissan LEAF Sales Improved Almost 50% In Q1 2021. What non-Tesla CCS vehicles sold in the US have exceeded that? Too bad FINAL UPDATE: Quarterly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard is no longer being updated. Many of the CCS vehicles sold/leased in the US are only CA/CARB compliance cars and are n/a outside those states (e.g. HyunKia BEVs). Some are already dead like the Clarity BEV.
Note in the above list, most vehicle models are PHEVs (don't have green battery icon). IIRC, the only two PHEVs there that sold in the US can be DC FCed are Outlander PHEV and BMW i3 REx.
From a quick glance at currently sold BEVs in the US at Federal Tax Credits for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Cars, if you exclude CARB compliance cars, I count maybe 6 to 8 models w/CCS, almost all of them having small sales.
Again, if a player like EA hadn't come along stacking the deck like this, don't you think there's a good possibility that the ratio of vehicles coming out in the US CHAdeMO instead of CCS might be different?
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That may be true for Canada, but may not necessarily be true in the USA. My impression is plenty of people ditched or never considered the Leaf and got a Tesla because of the convenience of the supercharger network. In terms of spread, there may be more CHAdeMO stations, but in terms of speed/reliability and having available chargers, that may be different (especially as pointed out above given the emphasis of CCS, many locations only have one lone CHAdeMO plug).
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think regardless of EA's games, the writing was on the wall that CCS would take over. Europe was going to go with CCS regardless, South Korea went with CCS in early 2018 (before EA's first station launched in mid-2018), and USA has SAE which while they allowed CHAdeMO, obviously favored CCS more (esp. with GM being a major SAE member).
The only market that steadfastly insisted on CHAdeMO is Japan, and automakers were ok to make an exception there and do things differently elsewhere (the volume there of foreign makes is low in the first place, so it's not as big a deal).
Sure, and there was a point in time you could have made the same kinds of statements about tube televisions or flip phones--the stuff that was dying off and being phased out.
Cheburashka
Active Member
Chademo is being phased out in USA. Nissan said they will move to CCS charging for new vehicles in North America.
Source? Nissan has said Ariya will be CCS for the US and Europe. Have not heard for the rest. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they move that direction for the US. Cheaper to put on a CCS inlet than to build out or pay someone to build out an above 50 kW CHAdeMO network here.
Depends what you mean by "being phased out"... by who? EA isn't doing CHAdeMO any favors but that's been their modus operandi since their first stations.
PDX-Y
Member
Yeah, but there are a half million Leafs on the road and they aren't going anywhere. So neither are the sockets. I wouldn't expect a whole lot more to be built though.
Ok let’s look at someone other than EA — when EVGO added Tesla support, which connector got booted out of the main cabinet? I doubt that was random selection.
Cheburashka
Active Member
Leaf is the only BEV that has the Chademo connector currently. I guess the Outlander too, but its a hybrid. They are putting CCS on the Ariya, which means this is the direction they are headed. I'd expect the next Leaf or whatever comes after it to also have CCS since it's highly unlikely Nissan will keep going with 2 different standards.
So... yeah, it's being phased out by, well, everyone.
Apparently, only about 175,000 of those are in the US or Canada, though: Nissan LEAF Sales Figures The Chevy Bolt alone has sold about 90,000, though of course not all have DCFC. At this point, it's mostly being kept alive by the existing user base, which consists to a not insignificant degree of Tesla owners limited in their ability to adopt CCS by the lack of a first-party adapter, which Tesla has been slow-rolling for years now. Like you say, the existing base of Leafs isn't going anywhere. OTOH, the Teslas might if given a better option, which a first party (or reliable third-party) able to exceed 50 kW would be.
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