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Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives
- Thread starter avesraggiana
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- Powerwall Tesla Energy
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
$7k seems feasible though I am not sure what it would cost in SoCal. For powerwall 1 I got a 12k quote
I heard back from SolarCity about the 3rd Powerwall and the good news is that it is pretty much as we speculated. They're afraid that a customer might be surprised by the system not charging because the Powerwalls don't have the capacity to soak all the power. So they have a new design guideline for it. Fortunately it sounds like a customer can get a waiver.
Anyone taking incentives have a come up with a way to pay less than 40% of the install costs?
arnold
Anyone taking incentives have a come up with a way to pay less than 40% of the install costs?
arnold
Sure. If you're in SGIP Step 1, the incentive is $0.50/Wh. PW2 is how big? 13,200 Wh? So that's $6,600 incentive. If Tesla only charges you $7,500 installed per PW, you're only paying $900 each, or 12%.
Maybe the SGIP Step 1 is only $5,875 per PW2, I'm not sure. That would still be 21.6% without ITC and 15.2% if you take the ITC on the balance.
Your 40% is about right for SGIP Step 2 without the ITC.
Did they take out the following section:
"• Establishes that the minimum customer investment in a project must be 40% of eligible project costs."
from page 104 of the SGIP handbook (https://www.pge.com/pge_global/comm...eneration-incentive-program/SGIP-Handbook.pdf) ? I admit I haven't read it cover to cover. I first heard of a 40% limit here:
DSIRE
Which I mentioned in a previous post. I still not sure if it is correct or not which I was asking if someone had a solid plan to pay less than 40%
arnold
"• Establishes that the minimum customer investment in a project must be 40% of eligible project costs."
from page 104 of the SGIP handbook (https://www.pge.com/pge_global/comm...eneration-incentive-program/SGIP-Handbook.pdf) ? I admit I haven't read it cover to cover. I first heard of a 40% limit here:
DSIRE
Which I mentioned in a previous post. I still not sure if it is correct or not which I was asking if someone had a solid plan to pay less than 40%
arnold
Well, certainly if it's in the handbook, that's how it is. That makes a whole lot more sense than basically giving people free PowerWalls in the first incentive step.
Although, I don't know how they would know if you took the ITC when you file your taxes next year. The application seems to ask about the intent to take the ITC, not the ability to take the ITC.
The way my SGIP application looks (as prepared by Swell Energy), I will get $11,750 incentive for 2 PW's and the application says I'm taking the ITC. According to my math, if the transaction proceeds according to that document, I will end up with a net cost of 29.3% of the project total if I take the 30% ITC on the net cost after SGIP.
Although, I don't know how they would know if you took the ITC when you file your taxes next year. The application seems to ask about the intent to take the ITC, not the ability to take the ITC.
The way my SGIP application looks (as prepared by Swell Energy), I will get $11,750 incentive for 2 PW's and the application says I'm taking the ITC. According to my math, if the transaction proceeds according to that document, I will end up with a net cost of 29.3% of the project total if I take the 30% ITC on the net cost after SGIP.
Applicants must pay a minimum of 40% of eligible project costs (the biogas adder is not included in calculating the limit). Projects using the Federal Investment Tax Credit (ITC) must pay 40% of the eligible project costs after the ITC is subtracted from the project costs (i.e., the SGIP credit is limited to 30% of project costs).
Source: Self-Generation Incentive Program | Department of Energy
Here is a source on ITC limitations and dual use: IRS Confirms that Batteries Qualify for the Energy Tax Credit But Imposes Limitations
My take away is Step 1 receivers are generally better off just sticking with SGIP. ITC doesn't help unless the install was so expensive the the SGIP didn't get to the incentive cap. Of course that's based on what I've been able to find on Internet. Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't make it true.
Apologies for the drift from the Powerwall 2 discussion.
arnold
In OR with no incentives around, a $7k install sounds right. In CA with major incentives - a $12k install sounds about right. With incentives on the table (plus higher permit costs in CA, which can be crazy-high in some areas) then they will up-charge installs to soak up some of that incentive. "You're getting SGIP and ITC, right? Let's bump the price and you won't even feel it". The SGIP looks to be a veiled "Jobs Program" for CA - perhaps written the way it was by people very close to the battery-making companies there. In the past, they boosted SGIP payout for companies based in CA - but Tesla now makes PW in Nevada.
Reminds me of the time I was offered a "Free" Level 2 Blink charger in 2013 from my local power company. Only $1100 to install the wire and mount the unit by the pro-electrician with the beautiful installation truck and gear who gave the estimate.
Any time during the PowerWall sales and install process - do they ever explain round-trip charging losses for those folks who are using it with Solar PV (or grid overnight charging)? Has there been a printed document with the round-trip efficiency numbers offered of PW2?
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bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
SGIP limits you to no more than 2 Powerwalls (so Tesla tells me). A third would be 100% on you to pay for.
I am in SoCal. Got a quote for 2 powerwall 2s for $16k (including panel upgrade/install costs). Step2 SGIP rebate is coming up to $9280. Net cost of $3400 per powerwall 2.
That is correct. Rated charge/discharge capacity of Powerwall 2 is 5kW. SGIP rebate for residential is capped at 10kW. So max 2 Powerwall 2s only.
In OR with no incentives around, a $7k install sounds right. In CA with major incentives - a $12k install sounds about right. With incentives on the table (plus higher permit costs in CA, which can be crazy-high in some areas) then they will up-charge installs to soak up some of that incentive. "You're getting SGIP and ITC, right? Let's bump the price and you won't even feel it". The SGIP looks to be a veiled "Jobs Program" for CA - perhaps written the way it was by people very close to the battery-making companies there. In the past, they boosted SGIP payout for companies based in CA - but Tesla now makes PW in Nevada.
Reminds me of the time I was offered a "Free" Level 2 Blink charger in 2013 from my local power company. Only $1100 to install the wire and mount the unit by the pro-electrician with the beautiful installation truck and gear who gave the estimate.
Any time during the PowerWall sales and install process - do they ever explain round-trip charging losses for those folks who are using it with Solar PV (or grid overnight charging)? Has there been a printed document with the round-trip efficiency numbers offered of PW2?
89% round trip efficiency. Datasheet attached.
The last I'd heard previously was that my two-Powerwall project was waiting for mounting hardware and they expected to install in mid-June. I wrote my contact at SolarCity yesterday asking for an update. Haven't heard from her, but today, I got a phone call saying that they were ready to install, and that the first available install appointment was this coming Friday. So that's all set to go.
Interestingly enough, I don't have a reservation confirmation of any sort for my SGIP rebate yet.
Interestingly enough, I don't have a reservation confirmation of any sort for my SGIP rebate yet.
New member, got my Powerwall 2 installed mid-May, don't have a Tesla but do have a Ford C-Max Energi PHEV.
I'm posting because I'm having an issue with the SGIP rebate and this may be of some interest to people trying to calculate the ROI on a Powerwall 2. I have 2 emails since Monday to the SolarCity Incentives program that they have failed to return and PG&E is telling me the SGIP deadline (for me at least) is June 24. My next step is a phone call to SolarCity at some point today. What appears to be happening is SolarCity hasn't sent the proper paperwork to them to establish the 75% charging from renewables requirement, among other things. The other issue is that the software is currently not capable of forcing the Powerwall to charge fully from solar, or at least 75% from solar until their update "sometime this summer". Here are the issues they noted while denying my SGIP incentive request: (I did fill out the RRF completely as requested, not sure why they didn't get the other items, and updating those is out of my hands and in SolarCity's.)
"During the technical review, we have found that the following items are missing and/or in need of clarification:
· Reservation Request Form
1. The applicant is neither claiming federal ITC nor is the AES charged 75% from renewables.
Issues:
1. Single module capacity given in the ‘Non-incentivized System(s) Onsite’ section of RRF, instead of total PV system size.
Needs:
1. Provide total Photovoltaic system size in the ‘Non-incentivized System(s) Onsite’ section of RRF.
For more information on the required documents at the Reservation Request stage, please refer to the SGIP Handbook.
To prevent cancellation of your incentive reservation, please submit the above items or answers no later than 06/24/17."
I'm getting increasingly concerned that I'll miss out on this credit due to no fault of my own, and face a penalty for being an early adopter. I'll keep updating as I get more info.
Thanks,
Joe
I'm posting because I'm having an issue with the SGIP rebate and this may be of some interest to people trying to calculate the ROI on a Powerwall 2. I have 2 emails since Monday to the SolarCity Incentives program that they have failed to return and PG&E is telling me the SGIP deadline (for me at least) is June 24. My next step is a phone call to SolarCity at some point today. What appears to be happening is SolarCity hasn't sent the proper paperwork to them to establish the 75% charging from renewables requirement, among other things. The other issue is that the software is currently not capable of forcing the Powerwall to charge fully from solar, or at least 75% from solar until their update "sometime this summer". Here are the issues they noted while denying my SGIP incentive request: (I did fill out the RRF completely as requested, not sure why they didn't get the other items, and updating those is out of my hands and in SolarCity's.)
"During the technical review, we have found that the following items are missing and/or in need of clarification:
· Reservation Request Form
1. The applicant is neither claiming federal ITC nor is the AES charged 75% from renewables.
Issues:
1. Single module capacity given in the ‘Non-incentivized System(s) Onsite’ section of RRF, instead of total PV system size.
Needs:
1. Provide total Photovoltaic system size in the ‘Non-incentivized System(s) Onsite’ section of RRF.
For more information on the required documents at the Reservation Request stage, please refer to the SGIP Handbook.
To prevent cancellation of your incentive reservation, please submit the above items or answers no later than 06/24/17."
I'm getting increasingly concerned that I'll miss out on this credit due to no fault of my own, and face a penalty for being an early adopter. I'll keep updating as I get more info.
Thanks,
Joe
I haven't received my SGIP incentive approval yet, but called SolarCity yesterday and got my contact person who was on vacation and wasn't able to respond to PG&E's requests for clarification. It seems like this is a small group or even a single person doing these for SolarCity, which is a little worrisome.
I had planned to partially discharge at night in any event to (at a minimum) avoid peak and partial peak rates until 11pm so no, it didn't really factor into my decision - not using it for long term energy storage. I'm certain that these discharges will get me to the 1 discharge a week minimum no matter what, since the discharge doesn't have to happen all at once. Since the battery is 13.5kW, all I have to do is average 1.93kW per day from the battery to have completed 1 full discharge equivalent in a week. It's an odd, somewhat arbitrary requirement, but it is what it is. PG&E does make it clear it can be over multiple discharge events: "A “full discharge” is the equivalent of discharging the SGIP-incentivized energy capacity, whether it is during a single or multiple discharges"
One could use the app setting and plugging in any EV or PHEV to complete this requirement - simply set the app to use battery after sun goes down, then plug your car in after sunset and you're discharging the battery.
Brovane
Member
Just want to confirm with the board based on what I have been reading.
If I am in Step 1 and want to claim the 30% Tax Deduction for the Battery System Install.
The SGIP Rebate with no ITC is $.50/wh and with ITC it is $.36/wh, do I have it right?
If I am in Step 1 and want to claim the 30% Tax Deduction for the Battery System Install.
The SGIP Rebate with no ITC is $.50/wh and with ITC it is $.36/wh, do I have it right?
I don't think the math is that simple. AFAIK, SGIP requires you to pay a minimum of 40% of the total project cost after all incentives. It appears that if you say you will take the ITC, then SGIP will give you less. I am inclined NOT to take the ITC because the system usage terms are less restrictive for SGIP than ITC.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
My read of the SGIP is that for residential systems, you can claim both. The ITC would be taken what the SGIP rebate doesn't cover (i.e. your after-rebate cost).
Example:
2 PW, installed price is $15,000 (example number, not necessarily real)
SGIP rebate $10,000 (example number, not necessarily real)
Out of pocket before ITC = $5,000, which you can claim 30% of for ITC, which is $1500.
Final out of pocket = $3500
jeffy1021 summed it up best here:
Powerwall 2 "waiting list"
IF you are looking at more than 10kW project (i.e. more than two powerwalls), then the tax landscape changes.
Example:
2 PW, installed price is $15,000 (example number, not necessarily real)
SGIP rebate $10,000 (example number, not necessarily real)
Out of pocket before ITC = $5,000, which you can claim 30% of for ITC, which is $1500.
Final out of pocket = $3500
jeffy1021 summed it up best here:
Powerwall 2 "waiting list"
IF you are looking at more than 10kW project (i.e. more than two powerwalls), then the tax landscape changes.
Brovane
Member
Thank you, everyone, for your replies.
I am wondering if the 40% minimum pay requirement applies to Residential SGIP
For example the theoretical example number 2 PW $15k.
40% of $15k is $6k so does that mean the maximum SGIP rebate is $9k?
Can you then claim ITC on the remaining $6k?
To me, the quote I got from Swell Energy which was $20k (2 PW) with a $11k SGIP incentive and $6k in Federal incentives is not right because they applied the ITC to the full PW cost which made my out of pocket cost $3k. Something is not adding up. I have an e-mail into Swell to help clear up for me what the incentives look like. The latest I got from them, is that they are waiting on confirmation of the SGIP rebate from the utility company. It appears my project made it into Tier-1.
I am wondering if the 40% minimum pay requirement applies to Residential SGIP
For example the theoretical example number 2 PW $15k.
40% of $15k is $6k so does that mean the maximum SGIP rebate is $9k?
Can you then claim ITC on the remaining $6k?
To me, the quote I got from Swell Energy which was $20k (2 PW) with a $11k SGIP incentive and $6k in Federal incentives is not right because they applied the ITC to the full PW cost which made my out of pocket cost $3k. Something is not adding up. I have an e-mail into Swell to help clear up for me what the incentives look like. The latest I got from them, is that they are waiting on confirmation of the SGIP rebate from the utility company. It appears my project made it into Tier-1.
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