Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[Knightshade]

Wider footprint? They're both 235 width tires! Assuming the rubber compounds perform the same, despite the Tesla OE version having a higher treadwear rating, the primary difference would just be the sidewall height/stiffness and every track test I've seen comparing 45 aspect to 35 aspect tires of the same width has put the difference in lap time inside of 2% in the dry. While the advantage still goes to the shorter sidewall in the dry, that can flip in the wet depending on the tire. Point being, the performance differences are small unless driving competitively and the difference in cost and other trades (aero, ride quality, etc.) is significant. If you're driving competitively, then you'll likely be using more track appropriate tires in non-OE wheel and tire sizes anyway.

Yup.... If I'm tracking the car a lot I wouldn't use either I'd be using non-street, likely wider, tires and lightweight wheels... if I'm only going to own ONE set of wheels/tires for 100% of my driving though even if it includes a bit of track, and given the 20s are heavier and will ride rougher off the track, I'd take the 18s with the 4S tires all day every day over the 20s with the 4S tires.

 

[Shizzrock]

Yeah, even though it's under the heading of "includes", I actually read that as simply unlocking additional items you can spend money on, but only for performance currently (in particular, the white interior and the 20" performance package), as opposed to anything actually on the vehicle itself.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But who knows!

 

[JeffC]

I'm "interested" in what kind of upgrades come with the non-5K upgrade model, which you can't answer. I'm not interested in being patronized, or having someone assume they know what my intentions are.

Pardon, misread your reply entirely. Had absolutely no intention to be patronizing, disrespectful or unfriendly at all. Sometimes that does not come across well online! I misread your reply as asking about the benefits of the Performance Upgrade option, and not the base Performance Model.

My deduction is that the Performance Model 3 (without $5k Performance Upgrade option) comes with:

1. Bin selected, higher specification drivetrains (motor, gearbox, differential units)
2. Higher power, Silicon Carbide transistored motor controllers (inverters)
3. Shorter, stiffer springs and dampers ("shock absorbers") appropriate for that, with a performance bias
4. Likely stiffer anti-roll bar(s) (upgraded springs, dampers and anti-roll bars are extremely common in suspension tuning.)
5. Probably larger front brake calipers which would greatly improve brake fade, but only noticeable for race track use (we don't currently know if this requires the 20 inch tires or will fit the 18s also)
6. Possibly other, smaller mechanical changes such as revised rear suspension settings, but only if Performance Upgrade option is selected?

Elon tweeted that the drive units include double burn in, implying greater reliability, or at least the ability to handle higher power. Elon Musk on Twitter His tweet implies that the higher power Silicon Carbide controllers are unique to the Performance Model.

The suspension changes are implied by the ~1 inch lower ride height, and the fact that they are very common modifications for performance-oriented cars.

Partial white interior becomes a $1.5k interior option, but only with Performance Model 3.

$5k Performance Upgrade option includes:

1. 20 inch wheels with performance oriented Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (Note: the fronts are reported to be 8.5 inches wide and the rears 10 inches wide. If so, the latter is DIFFERENT FROM THE ONES SOLD ON THE TESLA SHOP, and that could be confusing some folks.)
2. Small lip spoiler on trunk
3. Aluminum pedal covers
4. Top speed increase from 145 to 155 MPH (Note: it could be the spoiler that makes this physically practical)
5. "performance" brake calipers

There is a good possibility the latter are the same calipers painted red instead of black. Calipers are not the main limiting factor for brake fade on the race track. They are in order:

A. Brake rotor diameter and heat capacity (majority)
B. Brake pad composition
C. Brake fluid heat resistance

People taking their cars on the racetrack will probably want to upgrade B & C. B is easy. C is a bit harder. The effect of A dominates, but the whole is a system and will be limited by the weakest link.

Some of the above is speculative, or based on tweets. Tesla could help eliminate some uncertainty by providing exact specifications, but as usual for Tesla, things may somewhat be in a state of flux. I'm ok with that since they generally try to do the right thing for customers.

 

[JeffC]

Wider footprint? They're both 235 width tires! Assuming the rubber compounds perform the same, despite the Tesla OE version having a higher treadwear rating, the primary difference would just be the sidewall height/stiffness and every track test I've seen comparing 45 aspect to 35 aspect tires of the same width has put the difference in lap time inside of 2% in the dry. While the advantage still goes to the shorter sidewall in the dry, that can flip in the wet depending on the tire. Point being, the performance differences are small unless driving competitively and the difference in cost and other trades (aero, ride quality, etc.) is significant. If you're driving competitively, then you'll likely be using more track appropriate tires in non-OE wheel and tire sizes anyway.

The Performance Upgrade option rear wheels are believed to be wider at 10 imches. The lower profile 20 inch tires are more performance biased and will be more responsive and stick better, particularly in turns:

The Tesla Model 3 Wheel and Tire Guide

Note that if the rears are 10 inch wide, this would be a staggered arrangement and different from the 20 inch wheel and tire combination sold on the Tesla Shop! The latter are 8.5 inches wide front and back. Perhaps this is a source of some confusion.

The extra width could help put more of the higher power down, particularly for the rear bias of motor power both due to larger rear motor sizing and normal load transfer to the rear under acceleration.

Wheel and tire sizes are mostly chosen (and very carefully tuned) for physics and not vanity, particularly for factory (and competent aftermarket tuner) performance versions.

 

[mongo]

Pardon, misread your reply entirely. Had absolutely no intention to be patronizing, disrespectful or unfriendly at all. Sometimes that does not come across well online! I misread your reply as asking about the benefits of the Performance Upgrade option, and not the base Performance Model.

My deduction is that the Performance Model 3 (without $5k Performance Upgrade option) comes with:

1. Bin selected, higher specification drivetrains (motor, gearbox, differential units)
2. Higher power, Silicon Carbide transistored motor controllers (inverters)
3. Shorter, stiffer springs and dampers ("shock absorbers") appropriate for that, with a performance bias
4. Likely stiffer anti-roll bar(s) (upgraded springs, dampers and anti-roll bars are extremely common in suspension tuning.)
5. Probably larger front brake calipers which would greatly improve brake fade, but only noticeable for race track use
6. Possibly other, smaller mechanical changes such as revised rear suspension settings, but only if Performance Upgrade option is selected?

Elon tweeted that the drive units include double burn in, implying greater reliability, or at least the ability to handle higher power. Elon Musk on Twitter

Partial white interior becomes a $1.5k interior option, but only with Performance Model 3.

$5k Performance Upgrade option includes:

1. 20 inch wheels with performance oriented Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires
2. Small lip spoiler on trunk
3. Aluminum pedal covers
4. Top speed increase from 145 to 155 MPH
5. "performance" brake calipers

There is a good possibility the latter are the same calipers painted red instead of black. Calipers are not the main limiting factor for brake fade on the race track. They are in order:

A. Brake rotor diameter and heat capacity (majority)
B. Brake pad composition
C. Brake fluid heat resistance

People taking their cars on the racetrack will probably want to upgrade B & C. B is very easy. C is a bit harder. The effect of A dominates, but the whole is a system and will be limited by the weakest link.

Some of the above is speculative, or based on tweets. Tesla could help eliminate some uncertainty by providing exact specifications, but as usual for Tesla, things may somewhat be in a state of flux. I'm ok with that since they generally try to do the right thing for customers.

Humm...
Your list if the upgrades for the +5 k version makes me wonder if there are 3 binnings of P motors, stock, 145 MPH and 155 MPH. Only way I can figure out the price shift, unless the brakes are physically different from P to P+.

20 inch tire set is 4k stand alone, red paint is basically free, spoiler and pedal covers are likely sub 1k.

 

[Petra]

Humm...
Your list if the upgrades for the +5 k version makes me wonder if there are 3 binnings of P motors, stock, 145 MPH and 155 MPH. Only way I can figure out the price shift, unless the brakes are physically different from P to P+.

20 inch tire set is 4k stand alone, red paint is basically free, spoiler and pedal covers are likely sub 1k.

Remember, the price Tesla charges doesn't have to correspond to an increase in the cost of goods sold. The 145 to 155mph change could be nothing more than a software unlock--pure profit and an extra way of enticing people to buy the $5k package. Also, Tesla charges $1500 for the Model S carbon fiber spoiler, just as a point of reference.

 

[brianman]

Also if you're interested in going fast safely, please attend a performance driving or racing school. Driving skills are worth 100x performance hardware. A skilled driver in a slow car will beat an average driver in a fast car every day of the week.

Agree. And everyone should be interested in doing so safely.

 

[JeffC]

Humm...
Your list if the upgrades for the +5 k version makes me wonder if there are 3 binnings of P motors, stock, 145 MPH and 155 MPH. Only way I can figure out the price shift, unless the brakes are physically different from P to P+.

20 inch tire set is 4k stand alone, red paint is basically free, spoiler and pedal covers are likely sub 1k.

The motor, battery pack, and apparently upgraded controller (inverter) likely can easily handle the power needed to go 155. The change is a software unlock.

My speculation is that the small spoiler actually adds some needed stability at the new top speed. The aerodynamics of a very low drag car like Model 3 (and to a slightly lesser extent S) can be greatly affected by small changes.

Marginal cost of the 10 inch wheel/tire upgrade is possibly around $1k. The spoiler cost is possibly under $100. The logistics and labor to add it are probably more than the cost of the spoiler itself. Likewise the pedals. The $5k Performance Upgrade option should be highly profitable for Tesla.

 

[mongo]

Remember, the price Tesla charges doesn't have to correspond to an increase in the cost of goods sold. The 145 to 155mph change could be nothing more than a software unlock--pure profit and an extra way of enticing people to buy the $5k package. Also, Tesla charges $1500 for the Model S carbon fiber spoiler, just as a point of reference.

Oh sure, I get that. But if one can buy the pieces ala cart (wheels in are in store, pedal covers and spoiler are delivery add ons (or were)), then the attractiveness of the option package goes down. Esp if one wanted two sets of rims & tires and wasn't going to exceed 145 MPH.

 

[strangely]

Not sure if anyone else posted this as an idea, but it is it possible the other items (mainly the wheels), are what would be required if the car was to have a faster 0-60 time? Didn't Elon hint in a tweet that they could maybe make this faster? Perhaps one of the "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance" could be a ludicrous mode?

 

[Knightshade]

Pardon, misread your reply entirely. Had absolutely no intention to be patronizing, disrespectful or unfriendly at all. Sometimes that does not come across well online! I misread your reply as asking about the benefits of the Performance Upgrade option, and not the base Performance Model.

My deduction is that the Performance Model 3 (without $5k Performance Upgrade option) comes with:

1. Bin selected, higher specification drivetrains (motor, gearbox, differential units)
2. Higher power, Silicon Carbide transistored motor controllers (inverters)

As far as we know (ie Elons tweet that you quote later) the AWD and Performance models come with exactly the same drivetrains and inverters.

The only difference is that from each batch they build, they take the highest scoring ones, and run burn in testing twice as long.

Depending on the quality of their yields this may or may not mean that every drive train in every AWD 3 is capable of sustained P level performance. (this is similar to what Intel long did with CPUs, they bin sorted them, selling the highest testing ones at a higher price and higher "rated" speed, but their yields were usually so good that even the cheap parts could easily be overclocked and reliably run at the higher speeds... when enough people noticed they actually locked down the cheaper chips to prevent this eating away at their higher prices sales)

3. Shorter, stiffer springs and dampers ("shock absorbers") appropriate for that, with a performance bias
4. Likely stiffer anti-roll bar(s) (upgraded springs, dampers and anti-roll bars are extremely common in suspension tuning.)

To my knowledge there's been 0 verification of any kind from Tesla themselves that there's any suspension changes of any kind on the P model (other than the same one every car who orders the 20" wheel option gets to adjust the angle of the larger wheel to work correctly).

Which is a shame because if it did have those upgrades I'd have been more likely to consider upgrading from AWD to the P.

Elon tweeted that the drive units include double burn in, implying greater reliability, or at least the ability to handle higher power. Elon Musk on Twitter His tweet implies that the higher power Silicon Carbide controllers are unique to the Performance Model.

As I say his tweet implies exactly the opposite of this.

His exact tweet-

AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear. Silicon Carbide inverters in both. Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in.

The AWD and 3 both use the same PM rear that the RWD does, and both use the same induction front motor. SC inverters in both.

We know they're the exact same part because if they were different then "sorting" them would make no sense- you'd just put the P-specific motors in the Ps, and the non-P motors in the AWD cars.

Instead they take every batch of X motors, test them, and the highest scoring Y number of them (based on how many P orders they've got to fill) go into Ps, and the rest go into AWD cars.

But as I say, we've no idea if that means some AWD cars get motors that'd still be good enough for a P (because they had more than test above the minimum than they needed) or if virtually all AWD cars get P-capable motors (because there's not actually much variance in performance between units in the same batch of motors)

The suspension changes are implied by the ~1 inch lower ride height

Other than guesses based on renderings, is that ride height thing documented anywhere reliable?

Partial white interior becomes a $1.5k interior option, but only with Performance Model 3.

Until either demand for the white interior falls below 1k per week, or production of the white interior increases.... after either of those happens it'll be available for non-P models, per another tweet from Elon.

$5k Performance Upgrade option includes:

1. 20 inch wheels with performance oriented Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (Note: the fronts are reported to be 8.5 inches wide and the rears 10 inches wide. If so, the latter is DIFFERENT FROM THE ONES SOLD ON THE TESLA SHOP, and that could be confusing some folks.)

Reported by whom? That's certainly possible, but it's surprising they wouldn't use an off-the-shelf 20" set they already have given their production concerns.... what is Tesla doing on the model S performance this week with staggered vs non-staggered? I vaguely recall the base 19s weren't but the 21s were or something?

 

[JeffC]

As I say his tweet implies exactly the opposite of this.

His exact tweet-

Elon Musk said:

AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear. Silicon Carbide inverters in both. Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in.
[...]

Reported by whom? That's certainly possible, but it's surprising they wouldn't use an off-the-shelf 20" set they already have given their production concerns.... what is Tesla doing on the model S performance this week with staggered vs non-staggered? I vaguely recall the base 19s weren't but the 21s were or something?

Depends whether the "both" refers to both front and rear motor controllers or both Performance and non-performance dual motor cars. Please remember that there are two controllers in dual motor cars, one for front motor and one for rear motor.

Several factors lead me to believe the former:

1. The immediate context of the preceding sentence "AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear" refers to two items, the front motor and rear motor.

2. The Performance Model is significantly higher sustained power than regular dual motor. It's possible they're bin selecting the inverters, and selected standard inverters can do the higher power but:

A. It's a lot more power, not just a little.

B. His singling out of Silicon Carbide in that context to me implies physically different transistors. It also implies the standard inverter does not use Silicon Carbide transistors.



The drive units (motor/gearbox/differential) are apparently standard units selected for being able to survive higher power. AC electric motors are generally more thermally limited than power limited. Cooling matters a lot.



It is definitely possible that the standard controller can handle the extra power, but Elon's use of language says otherwise to me. We may only know for sure when someone takes apart inverters.



Regarding ride height, every image of Performance looks lower to me. The rendering on the configurator is definitely lower also. Also it's highly standard practice to lower performance models, stiffen the springs, dampers and anti-roll bars. See BMW M, AMG, Audi S, etc., etc., etc.



Regarding staggered wheels for the 20s, here's a reference. (I should have included it earlier; I sort of incorrectly assumed everyone was aware of it.) They could be wrong, but I think they're probably not. Also Performance has so much rear wheel torque that it would definitely benefit from more tire at the back.


The Tesla Model 3 Wheel and Tire Guide

20" Model 3 Sport Wheel

• Size: 20X8.5" Front, 20X10.0" Rear
• Offset: +35 Front, +45 Rear
• PCD: 5X114.3
• Center Bore: 64.1mm
• Weight: ~30-35 lbs (Speculated)
• Lug Nut Spec: 13/16 Hex, 14X1.50 Thread
• Lug Nut Torque Spec: 129 lb-ft
• Price: N/A
• Tire Spec: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, 235/35-20 92Y Front, 275/30-20 97Y Rear
• Details: This is the alpha sport wheel seen on Tesla Model 3 prototypes. A Non-staggered Wheel & Tire Package is available on the Tesla online store as of March 20, 2018.

 

[MrPinrel]

Please see my long reply on the previous page. The performance of the Performance model is so high that it greatly benefits from the largest wheels and shortest-sidewall, stickiest tires that can fit. The 19s would not really be worth the effort in that sense. Very likely that is why Tesla does *not* offer them.

P.S. Still no answer on the rotor question from Tesla. Again the rotor size may be far more important than the brake calipers, as Sasha's racing experience and measurements indicate. References MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit and Gridlife and the First Model 3 In Competition Worldwide

yes, i thought your post was very informative but, in my case, I’m not buying the performance model to go on the track. The only stress it will be put under is showing my friends how fast it is at a stop light. I’m buying a performance one because of the white interior and a little bit because of the improved acceleration, so I’m not as picky about the other stuff. However, I like the look of the sportier tires better.

My thought behind the 19inch option is it could get me the “sportier” look for $1500 instead of $5000...

 

[JeffC]

Not sure if anyone else posted this as an idea, but it is it possible the other items (mainly the wheels), are what would be required if the car was to have a faster 0-60 time? Didn't Elon hint in a tweet that they could maybe make this faster? Perhaps one of the "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance" could be a ludicrous mode?

Are you referring to quicker than the 3.5 seconds for Performance? Or the 3.5? The 3.5 is achieved mostly by being able to put more power through the motor controllers (inverters).

For upgrades beyond that, that Elon hinted, no clue. Power can be limited by motor, controller, battery, contactor, fuse, wiring, etc. Some are (far) more likely culprits than others.

 

[JeffC]

yes, i thought your post was very informative but, in my case, I’m not buying the performance model to go on the track. The only stress it will be put under is showing my friends how fast it is at a stop light. I’m buying a performance one because of the white interior and a little bit because of the improved acceleration, so I’m not as picky about the other stuff. However, I like the look of the sportier tires better.

My thought behind the 19inch option is it could get me the “sportier” look for $1500 instead of $5000...

Understood, and thanks. It may be possible to get 19 inch factory wheels, for example from people getting aftermarket wheels, or maybe eventually from Tesla. You could also get aftermarket wheels of your liking.

For stoplight grand prix, you'd still definitely want better tires. The energy efficiency tires on the Aero wheels are ok but not great at the limits. They're intended for very efficient cruising, not performance driving.

(And yes, I do think that efficiency is a form of performance and a very important one, but it's not what people usually mean by "performance".)

 

[Knightshade]

Depends whether the "both" refers to both front and rear motor controllers or both Performance and non-performance dual motor cars. Please remember that there are two controllers in dual motor cars, one for front motor and one for rear motor.

Several factors lead me to believe the former:

1. The immediate context of the preceding sentence "AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear" refers to two items, the front motor and rear motor.

2. The Performance Model is significantly higher sustained power than regular dual motor. It's possible they're bin selecting the inverters, and selected standard inverters can do the higher power but:

A. It's a lot more power, not just a little.

B. His singling out of Silicon Carbide in that context to me implies physically different transistors. It also implies the standard inverter does not use Silicon Carbide transistors.

To my knowledge Tesla’s drive units include an electric motor, a power inverter assembly and a gearbox in a single, multi-piece enclosure.

Musks tweet says he's specifically talking about drive units being sorted- not just the motors.

So it would be impossible for only the P drive units to have silicon carbide inverters if they're using the same drive units for both models and simply sorting them.

Regarding ride height, every image of Performance looks lower to me.

The only image I've seen of a production one is the "first off the line" shot where there's a massive wheel gap, which looks the opposite of lowered.

Have there been more real pics of production Ps that I missed?

The rendering on the configurator is definitely lower also.

Right- that's what I was saying- to my knowledge the entire "it's lower" idea is based off non-real-life graphic renders.

Also it's highly standard practice to lower performance models, stiffen the springs, dampers and anti-roll bars. See BMW M, AMG, Audi S, etc., etc., etc.

Sure. Yet Tesla did none of that for the Performance model S or X.

It's also standard practice to actually tell buyers the full specs of your vehicle and what's actually included with your purchase as compared to other options you offer... Tesla doesn't seem much for standard practice

Regarding staggered wheels for the 20s, here's a reference. (I should have included it earlier; I sort of incorrectly assumed everyone was aware of it.) They could be wrong, but I think they're probably not.

Errr... did you read the "details" bit there?

Details: This is the alpha sport wheel seen on Tesla Model 3 prototypes.

It then goes on to mention the actual production 20s available since March on the Tesla store are non staggered.

So if that's your source for the notion the P has staggered 20s it's... kind of not one.

If anything it suggests Tesla tested staggered wheels in prototype and decided against them for production.

 

[mongo]

Depends whether the "both" refers to both front and rear motor controllers or both Performance and non-performance dual motor cars. Please remember that there are two controllers in dual motor cars, one for front motor and one for rear motor.

Several factors lead me to believe the former:

1. The immediate context of the preceding sentence "AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear" refers to two items, the front motor and rear motor.

2. The Performance Model is significantly higher sustained power than regular dual motor. It's possible they're bin selecting the inverters, and selected standard inverters can do the higher power but:

A. It's a lot more power, not just a little.

B. His singling out of Silicon Carbide in that context to me implies physically different transistors. It also implies the standard inverter does not use Silicon Carbide transistors.



The drive units (motor/gearbox/differential) are apparently standard units selected for being able to survive higher power. AC electric motors are generally more thermally limited than power limited. Cooling matters a lot.



It is definitely possible that the standard controller can handle the extra power, but Elon's use of language says otherwise to me. We may only know for sure when someone takes apart inverters.

My thinking on drive electronics for P:

SiC is more efficient, so they would use that on all units for range (RWD, AWD,and P+). The gate drive/ switching characteristics are also different, so if P were different that's double the designs to validate and parts to build.

If P were the only one with SiC and they bin sort them, then either they scrap the non-P rated ones, or put them in R/AWD cars. So then there would be some R/AWD cars with SiC and some without. That is a bit of a config management nightmare.

Due to the integration of electronics and motor as the powertrain, it might also trigger the need for a separate VIN code for that motor type (low performance SiC vs Si). As it is, the VIN decoder only has single and dual motors, so either the released decoder is not updated (unlikely given they are in production now), or the drive units are physically identical for AWD and P.

 

[JeffC]

Here's another reference about wheel and tire size. Tire Rack works closely with manufacturers,

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sele...th+Staggered+Tires&autoYear=2018&autoModClar=

Tire-rack-Screenshot 2018-07-04 21.30.40

• JeffC
• Jul 4, 2018

 

[Shizzrock]

Yup.... If I'm tracking the car a lot I wouldn't use either I'd be using non-street, likely wider, tires and lightweight wheels... if I'm only going to own ONE set of wheels/tires for 100% of my driving though even if it includes a bit of track, and given the 20s are heavier and will ride rougher off the track, I'd take the 18s with the 4S tires all day every day over the 20s with the 4S tires.

Here's another reference about wheel and tire size. Tire Rack works closely with manufacturers,

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sele...th+Staggered+Tires&autoYear=2018&autoModClar=

Tire-rack-Screenshot 2018-07-04 21.30.40

• JeffC
• Jul 4, 2018

but the 19" wheels aren't staggered. You could just as easily say the 20" wheels aren't staggered from this information.

 

[JeffC]

+Knightshade Cars don't settle on their springs and dampers until they've been jostled around a bit. That's probably why the Performance Model 3 is riding so high on the assembly line. On the road, it probably rides lower than the non P versions.

Yes, the drive units include an inverter. The inverter is a module. It's possible the Performance drive units get a different inverter. "Impossible" seems a bit strong given that.

We know current Model S and X have air springs. When Model S used coil springs, there was a "+" option that had stiffer dampers and stiffer anti-roll bars. Fact. P85 vs P85+ | Tesla

The T-sportline page about Model 3 wheels says the 20s in the Tesla Shop are different from the prototype. It does not claim that the ones in the Shop are the production wheels.

I came here to share my interest in and appreciation of Teslas. Please don't beat me up for providing the best analysis I can, given limited information, unless you're trying to shut me up. If the latter, you have succeed. Congrats.

It would be nice if people could be more civil online. Perhaps using real names would help.