What i don't understand is how it has the same accleration time as the tesla with so much extra horsepower...... ???
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Lightning GT
- Thread starter tonybelding
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Electric Vehicles
If they are traction limited, why don't they just throw on thicker/wider tires? or is it not as simple as that?
GreenSpeed said:
Tesla's latest blog talks about that...
Tesla Motors - feel
"Sure, the engineers could have specified steamroller-sized wheels and tires to put even more rubber on the road and inflate the lateral grip numbers for the magazine statistics. That would have compromised the Tesla Roadster’s tactile response, and created a car that tramlines over grooves in the pavement and thuds over bumps and potholes..."
(In other words, having too wide tires can compromise handling).
Also wider tires have more rolling resistance that could shorten the ("oh so important") max range.
Stickier tires are possibly more important (to 0-60) than width. But sticky tires tend to have short lifespan and higher rolling resistance.
You really don't see much in the way of street cars with sub 3 second 0-60 times. You just start to get to the limit of traction no matter how much power you have.
Dragsters do things like putting bleach on the tires right before the race. They also use super soft tires that expand dramatically as they slip. They are only useful for straight line acceleration. See how much the drag tires wrinkle and distort under such heavy acceleration:
Those drag tires expand to double their at-rest diameter when blasting down the 1/4 mile.
Last edited:
Thanks for that TEG 
Still confused....so is it like this: They need to find just the right size that is the best compromise of everything....
everything being, accleration, grip, feel/handling.
F1 cars have very wide tires and I think they still handl fantastically so how is that?
I don't really get the whole tactile response thing? So are they saying/admitting the car would do a lap on a race track faster if it had wider tires?
Still confused....so is it like this: They need to find just the right size that is the best compromise of everything....
everything being, accleration, grip, feel/handling.
F1 cars have very wide tires and I think they still handl fantastically so how is that?
I don't really get the whole tactile response thing? So are they saying/admitting the car would do a lap on a race track faster if it had wider tires?
The roadster is trying to be a balanced vehicle that give excellent steering feel, excellent directional change stability (quick through a slalom), high efficiency, etc. Wider tires would help with some attributes, but would detract from others. Would you trade a little bit of dry traction in exchange for making the range shorter, steering harder, and less compliance over bumps? As they said on their blog they are resisting the temptation. Yes, F1 cars tend to have wide tires, but they replace them frequently, they are hard to steer, and comfort isn't a priority.
That makes more sense, but that begs the question for me, how they manage on cars like an enzo or buggati veyron with such huge tires, to keep comfort, steering feel, etc.
I was hoping they would offer a track pack for the tesla roadster like they do for the elise, whether it would be used on the track or not.
I was hoping they would offer a track pack for the tesla roadster like they do for the elise, whether it would be used on the track or not.
Not to mention that big fat rear wing. Without it, F1 car is almost undrivable.
You could put wider tires on TR, attach a big fat rear wing and get 3s 0-60 time.
At at least 4-times shorter range and half the top-speed.
Magic word: balance.
Active susspension, mass dampers, ... but than again what comfort? What makes you believe a supercar is comfortable to drive?
Exactly my point, why don't they put on wider tires onto the tesla or lotus elise for that matter, the only downside i see is worse range, harder steering(which can be cured with more power steering), and more bumpy ride.
Or they should atleast make it an option imho.
Or they should atleast make it an option imho.
Aftermarket tinkering can take care of that.
As I see it they are concentrating on one base model. They are a newcomer and have much to learn. They try to reduce the number of variables as much as they can and in this way maximize the quallity and performance of the product. Offering options on suspension / drivetrain means you are spreading available resources over much wider landscape resulting in overall lower quality.
Another point: wider tires are heavier => more unsprung weight
=
> Gearbox? There ain't any. I guess only posibility are some internal reduction gears,
You are right, on their Q&A section the say "no gearbox". But aren't reduction gears used to decrease rotational speed for an increase in torque? They need to increase rotational speed by a factor of, at least, 5:1 I would say. Won't that cause a huge drop in available torque?
> Has anyone found internal diagram of these hub motors? It would be interesting to see what magic produces such nice numbers.
The PML page has an image of the motors, but it's so small I can't make anything out:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/images/hipa_drawing.gif
I've done some google searches, but nothing yet.
You are right, on their Q&A section the say "no gearbox". But aren't reduction gears used to decrease rotational speed for an increase in torque? They need to increase rotational speed by a factor of, at least, 5:1 I would say. Won't that cause a huge drop in available torque?
> Has anyone found internal diagram of these hub motors? It would be interesting to see what magic produces such nice numbers.
The PML page has an image of the motors, but it's so small I can't make anything out:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/images/hipa_drawing.gif
I've done some google searches, but nothing yet.
Why?
Motors have 2000 max rpm. With no transmission and no gearbox that means max 2000 wheel rpm. With 16" wheels you are going 240kmh or 150mph at that rpm.
Plenty fast. Wanna go even faster? Mount bigger tyres
Regarding lack of wide tires on the Roadster, again I think the key is balance... Handling, ride comfort, range, tire life, etc.
Wide tires help most with lateral traction ("skidpad numbers"), but not as much in a straight line. I had posted those dragster pictures to show that they don't use very wide tires on the fastest accelerating cars on the planet. The key there is very sticky. The dragster is basically made into a glue machine trying to heat/melt the rubber onto the track. If they use up the whole tire in the 1/4 mile then so be it. Also those dragster tires are so soft with weak sidewalls that they would be terrible in cornering. Wide tires are also most helpful only on dry pavement. They have a tendency to want to float over water ("hyrdoplane") and would be horrible on snow and ice.
I think we have more or less covered the wide tire thing.
=====================================================================================================
Yeah, not a lot of pics of PML Flightlink "Hi-PA" hub motors to be found:
Wide tires help most with lateral traction ("skidpad numbers"), but not as much in a straight line. I had posted those dragster pictures to show that they don't use very wide tires on the fastest accelerating cars on the planet. The key there is very sticky. The dragster is basically made into a glue machine trying to heat/melt the rubber onto the track. If they use up the whole tire in the 1/4 mile then so be it. Also those dragster tires are so soft with weak sidewalls that they would be terrible in cornering. Wide tires are also most helpful only on dry pavement. They have a tendency to want to float over water ("hyrdoplane") and would be horrible on snow and ice.
I think we have more or less covered the wide tire thing.
=====================================================================================================
Yeah, not a lot of pics of PML Flightlink "Hi-PA" hub motors to be found:
Kardax
Member
Everything that Lightning is trying to do is "reasonably possible" with today's technology, especially if they plan to charge $300,000 for it. That alone is refreshing an an EV marketplace that seems more filled with "ideas" than "products".
I hope they sell a few (and at that price, they wouldn't need to sell a lot). I'd be really interested in seeing a Top Gear episode where they pit a Tesla Roadster, a Lightning GT, and a G-Wiz on the track
-Ryan
I hope they sell a few (and at that price, they wouldn't need to sell a lot). I'd be really interested in seeing a Top Gear episode where they pit a Tesla Roadster, a Lightning GT, and a G-Wiz on the track
-Ryan
New article about the Lightning
check it. . .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2007/09/01/nosplit/mflight01.xml
One interesting tidbit is that PML Flightlink expect one of their partners, a "major European vehicle manufacturer", to show something with their technology at the Frankfurt motor show.
I'll be keeping an eye out for that.
check it. . .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2007/09/01/nosplit/mflight01.xml
One interesting tidbit is that PML Flightlink expect one of their partners, a "major European vehicle manufacturer", to show something with their technology at the Frankfurt motor show.
I'll be keeping an eye out for that.
Finkenbusch
Member
Anyhow -
the "Lighning" (announced 23. July)
with the
military grade Atairnano battery
(full load in 10 minutes 80% load under one minute)
will give the ever-changing Tesla board and even more their investors as well as the folks who have planked down advanced payment a run for their money.
The Tesla is, part & technical feature for feature compared to the Lightning a nice, dedicated but childish soap-boy try.
As a true long time fan of Tesla and the idea it stands for I have to admit - we see in front of professional and fierce competitors (Mercedes, Prius, Renault, Lightning and more to come) a dead man walking
- ahem - dead men changing board...
the "Lighning" (announced 23. July)
with the
military grade Atairnano battery
(full load in 10 minutes 80% load under one minute)
will give the ever-changing Tesla board and even more their investors as well as the folks who have planked down advanced payment a run for their money.
The Tesla is, part & technical feature for feature compared to the Lightning a nice, dedicated but childish soap-boy try.
As a true long time fan of Tesla and the idea it stands for I have to admit - we see in front of professional and fierce competitors (Mercedes, Prius, Renault, Lightning and more to come) a dead man walking
- ahem - dead men changing board...
Finkenbusch
Member
Sorry & thanks
I did not intended to be rude, highjack or disturb - have overlooked the existing Lightning threads - sorry for that.
If a admin could kindly move my post to the proper place please and delete the replies here please?!
PS: I still stand by my opinion. Sad to see Tesla making headlines only and carrying a big mouth - since many years - Lightning is tight lipped, reasonable, seems serious and professional [highlight]AND[/highlight] above all seems to deliver.
In high quality
We shall find out more on 23.July 2008
I did not intended to be rude, highjack or disturb - have overlooked the existing Lightning threads - sorry for that.
If a admin could kindly move my post to the proper place please and delete the replies here please?!
PS: I still stand by my opinion. Sad to see Tesla making headlines only and carrying a big mouth - since many years - Lightning is tight lipped, reasonable, seems serious and professional [highlight]AND[/highlight] above all seems to deliver.
In high quality
We shall find out more on 23.July 2008
Last edited:
Finkenbusch
Member
Lightning to be presented on 23.July 2008 ?
While Tesla is mostly in the biz of changing and talking up new board members competitors seem to deliver.
the "Lighning" (announced 23. July)
with the
military grade Atairnano battery
(full load in 10 minutes 80% load under one minute)
will give the ever-changing Tesla board and even more their investors as well as the folks who have planked down advanced payment a run for their money.
The Tesla is, part & technical feature for feature compared to the Lightning a nice, dedicated but childish soap-boy try.
As a true long time fan of Tesla and the idea it stands for I have to admit - we see in front of professional and fierce competitors (Mercedes, Prius, Renault, Lightning and more to come) a dead man walking
- ahem - dead men changing board...
While Tesla is mostly in the biz of changing and talking up new board members competitors seem to deliver.
the "Lighning" (announced 23. July)
with the
military grade Atairnano battery
(full load in 10 minutes 80% load under one minute)
will give the ever-changing Tesla board and even more their investors as well as the folks who have planked down advanced payment a run for their money.
The Tesla is, part & technical feature for feature compared to the Lightning a nice, dedicated but childish soap-boy try.
As a true long time fan of Tesla and the idea it stands for I have to admit - we see in front of professional and fierce competitors (Mercedes, Prius, Renault, Lightning and more to come) a dead man walking
- ahem - dead men changing board...
Last edited:
Finkenbusch
Hey, Finkenbusch, good luck with that Lightning thing. They have been talking about that for years, and haven't even shown a powered prototype yet. About all they can show for progress is that they finally updated the website. And you have to be really out of your mind to call the Tesla a "childish soap-boy try" compared to the Lightning. Did you look through their gallery? A couple photos of a mockup, and a bunch of artist's sketches. Tesla is shipping cars now. Slowly, but they actually are.
I have personally test driven the Tesla. It is real. Do you enjoy driving artist's sketches?
Hey, Finkenbusch, good luck with that Lightning thing. They have been talking about that for years, and haven't even shown a powered prototype yet. About all they can show for progress is that they finally updated the website. And you have to be really out of your mind to call the Tesla a "childish soap-boy try" compared to the Lightning. Did you look through their gallery? A couple photos of a mockup, and a bunch of artist's sketches. Tesla is shipping cars now. Slowly, but they actually are.
I have personally test driven the Tesla. It is real. Do you enjoy driving artist's sketches?
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
