Lightning GT

[vfx]

Do you enjoy driving artist's sketches?

I do!

In an Ah Ah video.

Shining version:
YouTube - Danny accedently rides into a AH-HA video

 

[vfx]

What set the Tesla apart from all the garage operations and kit cars from the US or the UK is safety certification.

Do you have any idea how hard and expensive it is to pass all the crash tests here in the US?

The lightning is a cool looking car. but it's a long was off from being a reality here in the US.

An aside:
When they made the movie "Swordfish" here in Los Angeles they had to ship Travolta's TVR back to the UK when the movie was finished. Non DOT cars simply are not allowed here.

 

[Finkenbusch]

What set the Tesla apart from all the garage operations and kit cars from the US or the UK is safety certification.

Do you have any idea how hard and expensive it is to pass all the crash tests here in the US?

I know - the The U.S. government is planning to announce changes today for crash test safetyratings in an effort to offer more guidance for car shoppers.

These are in the EU (and especially in Japan) in parts far stricter then in the US.

Try and sit back at a Mercedes or Prius and take a good, hard, long look - and you understand what I mean.

Anyhow - the secret to the cars success is not the car itself but the professionalisation / commercialized handling of energy.

Or better said the availability of high power 380 Volt lines (at any petrol station, supermarket lot against pay - no big deal) for fast charging with high load and batteries like the Altairnano or super-capacitors who can sustain that high load without overheating.

At home for 110 /220V trickle charge (by solar panel)

 

[tonybelding]

PS: I still stand by my opinion. Sad to see Tesla making headlines only and carrying a big mouth - since many years - Lightning is tight lipped, reasonable, seems serious and professional [highlight]AND[/highlight] above all seems to deliver.

That's the opposite of my impression. The Lightning is made by a small company with limited resources. Nobody's seen a working prototype from them. They basically have a gasoline-powered car and a guesstimate of what it might do after being converted to electric power, using technology provided by other companies (unlike Tesla, who make their own battery packs and motors).

They're about where Tesla was three years ago, and nowhere near as ambitious in their plans.

 

[Finkenbusch]

We shall find out in 3 weeks.
If the Lighning should be indeed turn out as vaporware (what is indeed a option - one I do nat believe but anyhow) then the Tesla still has t catch up.
And fast...

Becaus this company will steamroll the global market for sure:

Dieter Zetsche Confirms Electric Mercedes in 2010 - We were right!! | BenzInsider.com - The Official Mercedes-Benz Fan Blog

 

[stopcrazypp]

We shall find out in 3 weeks.
If the Lighning should be indeed turn out as vaporware (what is indeed a option - one I do nat believe but anyhow) then the Tesla still has t catch up.
And fast...

Becaus this company will steamroll the global market for sure:

Dieter Zetsche Confirms Electric Mercedes in 2010 - We were right!!*|*BenzInsider.com - The Official Mercedes-Benz Fan Blog

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure you knew the news of Daimler and Tesla's cooperation, b/c when I first heard of the news of Daimler's EV plans I forgot:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1236-tesla-deal-daimler.html

So Tesla has as much to gain as Daimler does if the deal continues or grows.
As for Lightning I hold the same opinion as tonybelding, they haven't really shown anything yet, not even a mule. In fact out of all the EV companies, still the Tesla the seems to be the one poised to deliver (though that's not saying much b/c most EV companies today just makes NEVs or have concept vehicles that doesn't look anywhere near production, even EVs from mainstream manufacturers are only produced in the hundreds, which is less than even the Roadster's planned numbers, and some only in limited trial phase).

 

[Finkenbusch]

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure you knew the news of Daimler and Tesla's cooperation, b/c when I first heard of the news of Daimler's EV plans I forgot:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1236-tesla-deal-daimler.html

So Tesla has as much to gain as Daimler does if the deal continues or grows.

Mercedes' lithium batteries will come from a new factory in France, operated by JCS. That's a joint venture between U.S. components supplier Johnson Controls and French battery company Saft.

Why should a global company Mercedes Benz buy the "knowledge" of stacking a few thousand of-the-rack mobile phone batteries and how to cool / heat them?

From a company that cannot come up with a simple mechanical one-shift gear box in many months?

Have you seen the Mercedes headquater once?

Their men toilets seats at Mercedes R/D section alone, laid out overlapping, would occupy a far larger space then the whole property of Tesla & his parking lot amounts to - including Teslas most favorite pizzerias gardens space.

This does not say I'm in love with Mercedes (I hate the ridiculous service charges on my car even more as I love their product)

But Mercedes buys know-how from Tesla?
crazy idea if you look from a distance.

Musks probably starts to dress-up his former friends founding for IPO and uses the media for.
If history is any guide: he is good in that - if you understand what I mean - think Martin Eberhard...

 

[stopcrazypp]

[highlight]
Mercedes' lithium batteries will come from a new factory in France, operated by JCS. That's a joint venture between U.S. components supplier Johnson Controls and French battery company Saft.[/highlight]

That is from the plug-in deal a while back. That's the Mercedes PHEV, which seems to different from the EV news.

On the Daimler & Tesla cooperation news post, there is an update near the end with other sources other than Elon.

Even though Tesla's battery pack doesn't sound like much, it's still an integrated solution and unique in it's 50+kWh capacity. That it's thousands of cells linked together isn't that important, there aren't any other production ready packs avaliable today in that capacity or we'll be seeing a lot more 200+ mile range EVs. It has gone through all the relevant safety and durability tests too. It also addresses the quote that you gave:
"Mercedes taps the vehicle's air conditioning system for chilled liquid to regulate the battery pack's temperature and uses special components within the battery pack to draw heat from the cells. Kohler says Mercedes considers cooling mandatory to safe and reliable long-term use of lithium batteries, whether in a hybrid or a pure electric car."
The Tesla Roadster's pack basically uses the same kind of system.

I'm not under any illusion that Tesla's system is the most advanced or anything (ie for example the charging speed and safety can be improved futher by replacing the cells with newer chemistries, there should be better ways to make a large battery pack than linking thousands of cells), but it's attractive for it's own reason (relatively good energy density for a battery pack, a full integrated pack with temperature control, ready for production).

Of course as an EV fan, I'll be happy even if Daimler makes a pack that's better, alone or with JCS (of course if the pack isn't any better then I would think it's better off to have them support Tesla:tongue. That'll just make mainstream EVs come that much faster.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I know - the The U.S. government is planning to announce changes today for crash test safetyratings in an effort to offer more guidance for car shoppers.

These are in the EU (and especially in Japan) in parts far stricter then in the US.

Try and sit back at a Mercedes or Prius and take a good, hard, long look - and you understand what I mean.

A Prius is made in Japan and not every car in the EU is a luxury car like a Mercedes, so I don't really understand that comment about safety.

What I do know is small companies like Lightning (and even Tesla) have a hard time meeting safety standards, both in terms of cost of testing and in terms of engineering, which explains why small EV companies in the US go with 3-wheelers (Tesla got lucky this time since they are working with Lotus, which already sells the Elise here; the new Model S, AKA Whitestar, will be more of a challenge). I'm hoping that similar to Lotus, some of that "British Engineering" will be going towards safety so they might launch the car here in the US.

It's really hard to judge the Lightning right now b/c there is not even a prototype for the public to see, so I'll hold off any praising or criticism for the car until one comes out (if you look closely at the actual performance specs and not just the power & torque then you will start to ask why this car costs almost twice as much as a Euro Spec Tesla Roadster, £150k for the Lightning vs £80k for the Tesla:frown:, but again I'm withholding judgement until it's out in case they were just being conservative).

 

[tonybelding]

We shall find out in 3 weeks.
If the Lighning should be indeed turn out as vaporware (what is indeed a option - one I do nat believe but anyhow) then the Tesla still has t catch up.

I didn't say the Lightning was vaporware, not at all. I said the company is less ambitious. They aren't trying to be anything other than a small maker of small numbers of exotic sports cars. They also are working with more technology (motors, battery systems) developed by outside companies.

I also said that they are a few years behind Tesla. It's not because Lightning is a vaporware company. It's just because they started a few years later. AFAIK they didn't even start until after Tesla had already unveiled their engineering prototypes.

Britain has special regulatory exemptions for low-volume "boutique" car makers, which explains why so many such companies are located there. The people in Lightning Car Company have years of experience in that business, and I don't see any reason why they can't make a go of it.

 

[WarpedOne]

Becaus this company will steamroll the global market for sure

I don't get this thinking that the first company that will widely sell electric cars will succed and then its all over for all others. It is nice to be first to market, but being second is also much much easier. How many companies sucessfuly make and sell gas cars? Why exactly is Tesla over if it isn't the first?

This kind of thinking only shows that you do not really belive electric cars can stand for their own. You think they can only be succesful as a novelity, a niche market for crazy enthusiasts. The first company will be able to feed those with a bunch of electric cars and then noone will want one anymore?

 

[Cobos]

I don't get this thinking that the first company that will widely sell electric cars will succed and then its all over for all others. It is nice to be first to market, but being second is also much much easier. How many companies sucessfuly make and sell gas cars? Why exactly is Tesla over if it isn't the first?

This kind of thinking only shows that you do not really belive electric cars can stand for their own. You think they can only be succesful as a novelity, a niche market for crazy enthusiasts. The first company will be able to feed those with a bunch of electric cars and then noone will want one anymore?

I agree with you on this Warpedone, there are room for several makers of EVs just as there are room for several makers of dinocars. And the funny thing is that Tesla seems to have understood that, hence the reason they're not throwing the first thing they can make at the market. What does be a problem though is the regulatory landscape. Currently an EV in Norway incur no taxes while a dinocar often costs 50-200% extra in taxes and fees. As EV's become the majority vehicle some or all of these benefits are going away, and then you need to have done some generations of EV's to have worked out all the kinks.

Cobos

 

[Cobos]

The Lightening looks lovely but apart from that it seems to pale in comparison to Tesla. Especially if you compare their webpage to Tesla's webpage. Looking over the specs they seem to be missing a lot.
No mentioning of airbags, so I'll assume they don't exist, and hence fat change of getting them accepted on the roads in the US.
No mentioning of how they do their 10min recharge safely, not to mention efficiency not mentioned with a word either. This must be not thought out properly either?
With twice the power in their 4 engines and slower 0-60 times than the Tesla Roadster, how do they manage that? It might be the reason why neither any weight for the car OR any maximum range is mentioned as the car probably is very heavy.
At a more expensive price than the Roadster in UK, with less of a production going on I fail to see how this is any revolutianary change. It's basically another Fetish with a different body shell. Nice for those who can afford it, but no big change for the EV market. And seriously anyone that can afford a Lightening or a DB9 is not buying the Lightening to save a few pounds a year on gas. Otherwise I really can't understand how they managed to get as much money in one place as that??

Cobos

 

[WarpedOne]

As EV's become the majority vehicle some or all of these benefits are going away, and then you need to have done some generations of EV's to have worked out all the kinks.

True, some benefits will disappear, but others will come into being.

Part suppliers will have broader selection of parts suitable for EVs, general public will be more knowledgable of EVs and know what to expect and what not, some regulations will be modified to accomodate EVs (mpg anyone), large format batteries will be produced in larger quantities and hence cheaper etc etc.

Being first comes with its own upsides and downsides. To me it seems that the biggest upside to being first is - being first. History remembers only the first.

 

[malcolm]

Or better said the availability of high power 380 Volt lines (at any petrol station, supermarket lot against pay - no big deal) for fast charging with high load and batteries like the Altairnano or super-capacitors who can sustain that high load without overheating.

At home for 110 /220V trickle charge (by solar panel)

But the problem with any type of fast charger is that EV owners will feel (quite rightly) that they are being charged extra for the same number of kWh needed to fill the battery. (After all, the installation, maintenance and safety certification costs of high voltage and/or current equipment plus qualified staff costs must be passed on to the customer)

Yes recharging at home is slow, but it will always be the cheapest source of electricity because no-one has to create the infrastructure.

Imagine if you had the opportunity to pay $1:50 per gallon for (slower delivery of) legal gas at home compared to $4 per gallon (for faster re-fueling) at a service station. Which would you choose?

The business model for ultra-fast recharge stations is fatally flawed. This ultra-fast recharge ability of some battery chemistries will go un-used.

 

[Finkenbusch]

I would choose both - and certainly I'm not alone.

Imagine if you had the opportunity to pay $1:50 per gallon for (slower delivery of) legal gas at home compared to $4 per gallon (for faster re-fueling) at a service station. Which would you choose?.

Depending on the situation.
I would choose both if convenient - and certainly I'm not alone.

Do you make your own pasta?
Most certainly not...

I do - in finest possible quality, only with semola de grano duro and a few drops virgin olive oil

 

[SByer]

Do you go to the cell phone store to swap/charge the batteries?

This supposed need for a fast charge is a red herring.

 

[bobw]

I think it's to answer the Road Trip objection

As in:

"I don't want to have to wait 6 hours every 200 miles to recharge the battery on a road trip."

I bet the car makers hear this objection in focus groups all the time.

I think a reasonably priced, freeway capable electric car that seats four, goes 100 miles per charge with the airconditioning on, and recharges overnight would make a great second car. The other car would be sized for road trips.

I can imagine couples fighting over the electric car when the other car is low on gas.

 

[malcolm]

Depending on the situation.
I would choose both if convenient - and certainly I'm not alone.

I accept that there can be such a thing as gourmet pasta and even regular and premium fuels, but electricity is electricity.

And unless you and other customers support ultra-fast recharge stations by paying their higher prices sufficiently regularly, they go out of business.

In these early days when there are so few EVs on the road that is all too easy. And in the time it takes for EV numbers to grow we may well see battery range increase, further reducing the frequency of custom at any recharge stations which happen to open.

It's like expecting existing gas stations to survive by serving only exotic sports cars.

And as for Road Trips, it is in the interests of service stations to only offer slow recharges of a few hours duration to "encourage" EV drivers to stop for longer lunch breaks and to do more shopping. This would also reduce their overheads on the charging equipment.

 

[Finkenbusch]

malcom - please dont take it personal - your wrong & wrong - luckily

I accept that there can be such a thing as gourmet pasta and even regular and premium fuels, but electricity is electricity.

And unless you and other customers support ultra-fast recharge stations by paying their higher prices sufficiently regularly, they go out of business.

Electricity is definitely not electricity.
The approach touches abilities, philosophy and lifestyle.

Think of a simple soup...

A soup at home is not like a soup in a first class restaurants - both may be technical 100% identical and the same soup in the soup-bowl - the difference lies in the convenience / service.

Do I have time to shop & cook, do I have knowhow and gear, or can I afford and enjoy simply to let others do the work for me for a small change?

Saving time for more worthwhile matters:

Dont forget - he end you digest basically the same soup - the difference is the service.

The possibility to draw high level customers to a shopping lane by offering a recharge station is no dream but a sound business idea- opposite Buckingham Palace a recharge station for the 100 car electric Mercedes/Smart fleet was mounted recently.

There is no need for "fast charge" stations - there ready here.

The name is high voltage 380 Volt "Drehstrom" (in geman) - every laundromat, petrol station, shopping malls, pizza baker or Wall mart have many of them - otherwise they could not run the demanding fridges, elevators or pump petrol in your car.

110V in the US - 220V in europe is for private light use only.

But every own house / block has a higher voltage connection somewhere - otherwise semi commercial electric appliances in half USA would not work - including your elevator.

Point until now was that given battery technology allowed only for slow charges - otherwise the batteries went south. The game has changed with the "appearance" of the Altairnaono battery which can be charged to 80% in a minute and fully in 10.

True - we have not seen the Altairnano in the wild - but the US army has.

The US Army reps have visited production and where impressed - and the army has reserved a good part of capacity for their predators in 2009

- if its good enough for uncle Sams ever-ready Army its inly certagood enough for us