Israel/Hamas conflict

[Tam]

Aside from the nuanced reasons for why they were displaced from their homes (while other Arabs were allowed to stay), historical should matter.

In 1948, I imagine not too many people would have said it was totally inappropriate for Arabs to attack Israel.

But now it's 75 years later. Those people displaced, certaintly the ones that even remember their homes, have mostly passed.

It began in 1948 and continues today. Palestinians in the West Bank still have to endure the violence and killings from Israeli Settlers in addition to the IDF raids and checkpoints.

When is "grace period" over? Are Native Americans still allowed to attack cities in the U.S., since their land was legimately stolen 150-200 years ago? What about the other thousands of cases in history where a people have been displaced, should they have been "allowed" to attack back for the land in perpetuity?

The Palestinian problem is that they are treated with different rules than the "norms" established for basically everyone else. Starting with chronic "refugee" status for descendants.

200 years ago, there was no UN. Stronger people could slaughter weaker people for land and get rich.

The UN was created in 1945 with international laws. There are laws governing how governments should behave.

The UN has agreed on the two-state solution. Per the UN, Palestinians can no longer take back Tel Aviv and the inside of the 1948 Israel border anymore, but they can stay in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

[Jigglypuff]

PLO aide calls for disarming guerrillas - UPI Archives

A Palestine Liberation Organization official has urged Palestinian guerrillas in Lebanon to disarm and move to the self-rule areas in the West Bank and Gaza...

www.upi.com

"A Palestine Liberation Organization official has urged Palestinian guerrillas in Lebanon to disarm and move to the self-rule areas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip,"

Arafat Reportedly Agrees To Disarm, Leave Lebanon
"Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat agreed in principle tonight to order his forces to lay down their arms and leave Beirut with him"

Israel recognizes PLO, which renounces violence - UPI Archives

Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization formally recognized each other Thursday and were ready to sign a historic agreement gradually granting...

www.upi.com

"PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat recognized the state of Israel and pledged to renounce violence and terrorism."

Oh, you listen to what terrorists say now? Selective hearing, since you don't notice all their "Death to Israel! Death to the Jews!" chants.

The Palestinians never disarmed. To say otherwise is bizarre. The violence never ceased. At best, it lulled.

Yassar Arafat is the dictator who stole from the Palestinians and said no to peace until the day he died.

It began in 1948 and continues today. Palestinians in the West Bank still have to endure the violence and killings from Israeli Settlers in addition to the IDF raids and checkpoints.

200 years ago, there was no UN. Stronger people could slaughter weaker people for land and get rich.

The UN was created in 1945 with international laws. There are laws governing how governments should behave.

The UN has agreed on the two-state solution. Per the UN, Palestinians can no longer take back Tel Aviv and the inside of the 1948 Israel border anymore, but they can stay in the West Bank and Gaza.

You have some serious hero worship with the UN, which is overwhelmed by totalitarian and theocratic countries. What the UN says doesn't matter. You're holding the constant double standard of saying Israel must follow the rules, and the Palestinians are off the hook. 1948? Those were armistice lines, not borders. Get your history straight. You're doing your best to award mass murder.

 

[dhrivnak]

Let me know when you're ready to relinquish the land your home is on to the descendants of the Cherokee it was taken from. At least they aren't raping and murdering your family and neighbors.

You are correct here, and think if the Chinese were to arm the Cherokee to the teeth to enable that, similar to how we arm Israel. One difference the Cherokee were driven out some 300 years ago. The Palestinians this generation so the wounds are much fresher. And even if you were to go back 3000 years it appears Gaza was never part of Israel.

 

[madodel]

Damned if you don't, damned if you do. The issue is of course that terrorists don't think rationally or in the interest of anything other than their own agenda.

Biden’s plan for Gaza pier endangers U.S. troops, experts warn

But the article also quotes experts who say the US military can handle it. Weird how it is a "war zone" when the US wants to help, but it is unprovoked "genocide of peace loving nonviolent citizens" when others condemn the US for not helping.

 

[wdolson]

Damned if you don't, damned if you do. The issue is of course that terrorists don't think rationally or in the interest of anything other than their own agenda.

Biden’s plan for Gaza pier endangers U.S. troops, experts warn

But the article also quotes experts who say the US military can handle it. Weird how it is a "war zone" when the US wants to help, but it is unprovoked "genocide of peace loving nonviolent citizens" when others condemn the US for not helping.

There are a lot of no win situations in and around this war.

 

[Bouba]

There are a lot of no win situations in and around this war.

It’s winnable....Hamas miscalculated...their plan was to set a match to the Middle East...Hezbollah attacks from the north, the West Bank rises up...Iran and Syria openly support them. It hasn’t happened. Their only remaining strategy is to drag the conflict out long enough until all their sympathizers in the West have pressured their countries to isolate Israel. And I think that they underestimate how long Israel can endure international isolation...they’ve had a lot of practice.

 

[wdolson]

It’s winnable....Hamas miscalculated...their plan was to set a match to the Middle East...Hezbollah attacks from the north, the West Bank rises up...Iran and Syria openly support them. It hasn’t happened. Their only remaining strategy is to drag the conflict out long enough until all their sympathizers in the West have pressured their countries to isolate Israel. And I think that they underestimate how long Israel can endure international isolation...they’ve had a lot of practice.

I don't think they miscalculated at all. I think their plan all along was to get clobbered by Israel in a straight up fight, but in doing so they turn large numbers of people in the west against Israel. They have spent years grooming the youth of the west to believe that Israel is an occupying force and the Palestinians are the innocent victims of Israeli aggression.

That has been the message put out of TikTok for years now. Public opinion turned against them in the opening days of the war, but the PR people running the campaign know that the public has the attention span of a fruit fly and that images of Israel bombing hospitals (which Hamas was using as bases) and civilians suffering and dying (because Hamas was using them as shields) would predominate and attitudes in the west would turn against Israel.

And in this sort of war, killing every fighter for Hamas just recruits a few more for the next war. The plan from the start was to lose this war, but win the next one when Israel was cut off from western aid due to political pressures and Hamas was much bigger because of all the angry young men who joined up because of what Israel did to win this war.

Israel may be able to survive international isolation for a while. But defending themselves will be much tougher if the US cuts off aid entirely. The IDF is built around American kit and cutting that off will weaken Israel quite a bit.

I wouldn't write off Hamas, It's possible that they have been degraded past the point of no return, but it's also possible that they will surge back stronger than ever. Hamas is an insurgency force and that makes them almost impossible to eliminate.

 

[bhzmark]

During the occupation of Afghanistan, the US did not starve the population while attacking the Taliban.

During the long ceasefire and full withdrawal from Gaza, Israel gave jobs to Gazans but then the gazans and their leaders violate the ceasefire , violate the borders to commit rape jihad on music festivals and communal farms. They now suffer the consequences for their poor choices.

Indeed, Egypt does not want Hamas to enter Egypt, but it allows humanitarian convoys from Egypt to get into Gaza.

Indeed Israel does not want Hamas to enter Israel but it also allows even more humanitarian convoys from Israel to get into Gaza than Egypt does.

Palestinians can no longer take back Tel Aviv and the inside of the 1948 Israel border anymore, but they can stay in the West Bank and Gaza.

Then they should stay there and not commit rape jihad on music festivals.

I think their plan all along was to get clobbered by Israel in a straight up fight, but in doing so they turn large numbers of people in the west against Israel.

I don’t give the Palestinians that much credit for thinking beyond the next war or even beyond the next martyrdom opportunity. I take them at their word and the words of their Hamas charter and the word of their Koran: they simply want to kill infidels and especially Jewish infidels.

The plan from the start was to lose this war, but win the next one

They are incapable of long term planning

Hamas is an insurgency force and that makes them almost impossible to eliminate.

I thought Hamas was the democratically elected political leadership freely chosen by the people of Gaza to carry out the wishes of the Gazan people.

 

[wdolson]

I don’t give the Palestinians that much credit for thinking beyond the next war or even beyond the next martyrdom opportunity. I take them at their word and the words of their Hamas charter and the word of their Koran: they simply want to kill infidels and especially Jewish infidels.

Never underestimate the enemy. The blitz they have been doing on social media in the west indicates there is a long term plan to undermine support for Israel.

They are incapable of long term planning

Again, don't underestimate the enemy.

I thought Hamas was the democratically elected political leadership freely chosen by the people of Gaza to carry out the wishes of the Gazan people.

The last election was in 2006. About half the population of Gaza weren't born or weren't old enough to vote in that election. Just because a person or group is doing horrible things now, doesn't mean they didn't get there legitimately. Hitler came to power legitimately.

 

[bhzmark]

The last election was in 2006. About half the population of Gaza weren't born or weren't old enough to vote in that election. Just because a person or group is doing horrible things now, doesn't mean they didn't get there legitimately. Hitler came to power legitimately.

Yes and shame on the Germans for not replacing Hitler, one way or another. They paid a steep price.

And shame on the Gazans for supporting and participating in the Hamas led rape jihad. They will pay a similar price.

If they were a decent people they would replace Hamas and educate their children, including their girls, on something other than how to commit rape jihad on Jews.

Poll: Hamas Remains Popular Among Palestinians

Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist...

www.fdd.org

https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Education-for-Terrorism-in-Palestinian-Schools.pdf

 

[wdolson]

Yes and shame on the Germans for not replacing Hitler, one way or another. They paid a steep price.

And shame on the Gazans for supporting and participating in the Hamas led rape jihad. They will pay a similar price.

If they were a decent people they would replace Hamas and educate their children, including their girls, on something other than how to commit rape jihad on Jews.

Poll: Hamas Remains Popular Among Palestinians

Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist...

www.fdd.org

https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Education-for-Terrorism-in-Palestinian-Schools.pdf

The best way to stop authoritarians is before they get too much power. Once they get established, it's tough to get rid of them.

Anyone who tried to opposed Hamas in Gaza ended up dead. Just as what happened in Germany.

 

[Tam]

...images of Israel bombing hospitals (which Hamas was using as bases) and civilians suffering and dying (because Hamas was using them as shields) would predominate and attitudes in the west would turn against Israel...

The US public support for Israel was solid year after year, but Israel couldn't wipe Hamas off the face of the earth as of now, a few days from its 6th month. At the same time, death tolls and violence continue. The poll is now switched to the opposite direction: 55% Disapproval and 36% Approval:

Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza

A majority of U.S. adults now disapprove of Israel's military action in Gaza, a shift from the prior survey in November.

news.gallup.com

 

[Bouba]

The US public support for Israel was solid year after year, but Israel couldn't wipe Hamas off the face of the earth as of now, a few days from its 6th month. At the same time, death tolls and violence continue. The poll is now switched to the opposite direction: 55% Disapproval and 36% Approval:

Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza

A majority of U.S. adults now disapprove of Israel's military action in Gaza, a shift from the prior survey in November.

news.gallup.com

View attachment 1034168

That’s a silly poll.....someone could easily vote disapprove because they want the military to go in even harder

 

[Buckminster]

That’s a silly poll.....someone could easily vote disapprove because they want the military to go in even harder

You don’t think this is right?

I think that this will happen in Ukraine in a year or two also.

 

[Bouba]

You don’t think this is right?

I think that this will happen in Ukraine in a year or two also.

I don’t like imprecise questions....and more to the point, I think that vague questions are deliberately set to promote the view of the polling company’s client....perhaps they polled people and found a happy client is a repeat customer.
Nobody ‘approves’ of protracted actions....but the disapproval could be that the job wasn’t finished quickly...not that they changed sides

 

[Tam]

I don’t like imprecise questions....and more to the point, I think that vague questions are deliberately set to promote the view of the polling company’s client....perhaps they polled people and found a happy client is a repeat customer.
Nobody ‘approves’ of protracted actions....but the disapproval could be that the job wasn’t finished quickly...not that they changed sides

The US public was solid in supporting the US wiping out Al-Qaeda off the earth at the start of the war against Afghanistan: 98% approval.

It turned out that it's not so easy to do so as Al-Qaeda and the new ISIS are still around after 20 years of fighting in Afghanistan. The US public didn't switch to side with Al-Qaeda and the new ISIS, but that 90% approval poll becomes "62 percent of Americans thought the war in Afghanistan wasn’t worth fighting."

 

[Bouba]

The US public was solid in supporting the US wiping out Al-Qaeda off the earth at the start of the war against Afghanistan: 98% approval.

It turned out that it's not so easy to do so as Al-Qaeda and the new ISIS are still around after 20 years of fighting in Afghanistan. The US public didn't switch to side with Al-Qaeda and the new ISIS, but that 90% approval poll becomes "62 percent of Americans thought the war in Afghanistan wasn’t worth fighting."

Al-Qaeda, ISSI, Hamas, Hezbollah are just horns on the same devil

 

[bhzmark]

The best way to stop authoritarians is before they get too much power. Once they get established, it's tough to get rid of them.

plenty of precedent for this being done. List of deposed politicians - Wikipedia

If the Gazans would put the energy and resources they currently commit to digging tunnels and planning for rape jihad, they could have easily replaced Hamas with a political leadership to develop their barren desert the same way the Jews developed their barren desert into a thriving democracy and economic power that is the only land to recognize equality for women and LGBTQ in the entire Middle East.

 

[indysurfer]

The poll is now switched to the opposite direction: 55% Disapproval and 36% Approval:

Polls are polls. Here is the Harvard Harris poll from a few weeks ago.

Not surprising that some support for Israel is softening with all of the abuse they are taking from Biden, Democrats and partisan Media who only seem to judge and make demands of Israel (and none of Hamas) as they try to rescue their hostages.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/HHP_Mar2024_KeyResults.pdf

 

[Bouba]

Polls are polls. Here is the Harvard Harris poll from a few weeks ago.

Not surprising that some support for Israel is softening with all of the abuse they are taking from Biden, Democrats and partisan Media who only seem to judge and make demands of Israel (and none of Hamas) as they try to rescue their hostages.

View attachment 1034226

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/HHP_Mar2024_KeyResults.pdf

Harvard must be wondering what’s going on....but I suspect a similar poll taken on campus would yield similar results....my experience of university (obviously not Harvard) back in the day showed about 95% of the school quite conservative....but everything was run by the 5% of committed radicals. Those days the faculty just wanted tenure...now I suspect that the 5% comprise 95% of the faculty. It’s easy to imagine everything is much worse than it is if there are weekly near riots on the street.