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Israel/Hamas conflict
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
Jigglypuff
Member
More obfuscation and sleight of hand. The Palestinians are not Indigenous people like Native Americans. The Jews are not colonizers when returning to their ancestral lands with an unbroken history of thousands of years.
More blood libel. Rachel Corrie committed suicide by bulldozer, a huge, slow vehicle that has terrible sight lines. Also sleight of hand as you bring in an utterly irrelevant event, the maintenance of the security corridor around Gaza that clearly is necessary if inadequate as Hamas proved on 10/6.
Tiger
Active Member
I agree, the best solution is a two state solution, but every time progress is made towards that, someone does something to derail the progress. There is probably still a majority on both sides who would accept a two state solution if an agreement could be reached, but passions are inflamed on both sides by the current war and it's impossible to get there any time soon.
I see both sides of the argument. For almost 2000 years the Jewish people were not in any form of power in the region. When the Romans decided to move most of the Jews to the fringes of the empire after 70 AD, some were left behind, and some made their way back to the Middle East. There were smallish Jewish communities throughout the region for the last 2000 years. But they were never in control of any of it.
First the Rome, then the Eastern Roman Empire controlled the area. The region Christianized when the Eastern Roman Empire did and things went on with the Jewish minority doing their thing here and there while the bulk of the Jewish people tried to survive in Northern Europe. Then Islam swept the region and the Muslims usually treated the Jewish minority better than the Christians did. In most places any "people of the book", ie Christians and Jews were left alone to do their thing but they couldn't hold any power and had to pay an extra tax. Many converted over time to avoid the tax or to seek power.
The Christian invasion during the Crusades left a bad taste for Christians in the region, but the Jews were mostly unaffected.
There was a presence of Jewish people in modern day Israel throughout that time but they were powerless with various forms of Muslim control (and relatively brief Christian control). In the modern era the Ottomans became the rulers of the region, but held it fairly loosely. Then World War I and its aftermath saw Europeans in charge again and European Jews started the Zionist movement to get Jewish people to return to the region and modern day Israel came out of that.
The modern day Israelis lay claim to the area based on religious documents that are thousands of years old. We also have surviving documents from the Roman era that document the removal of the Jewish people by force to the far edges of the Empire.
The peoples who have lived there the last 2000 years don't have the organized documentation to back up their claims, but they were there. They also didn't have any organized culture that could be called a "nation" like the Jewish people did, so you can't point to the pre-British occupation days and say, there are the Palestinians. But they were there and they were the majority.
A nation is a group of people who see themselves as something separate and apart from another group. Genetically the people on both sides of the border between England and Scotland are not that different. But the people on the Scottish side of the border have a distinct identity that is separate from the English. The UK is one country, but there are groups of people who identify as Welsh, Scottish and Irish separate from the English, even if a DNA test couldn't tell the difference.
Hardship of some kind tends to forge these identities. We are watching it happen in Ukraine right now. Before the war the Ukrainians struggled with a national identity. A lot of Ukrainians were Russo-philes and a lot favored Europe. The pro-Russians tended to live in the east, closer to Russia and many have Russian ancestors. The pro-Europeans are more in the west and have historically been more part of Europe. The western edge of Ukraine was part of Poland from the modern establishment of Poland to 1939.
The war has forged a clear Ukrainian identity that is pro-European, but distinctly Ukrainian. The country was bi-lingual before the war with a large percentage of the population speaking Russian on a daily basis, but now there is a strong move to ditch anything that is Russian in Ukrainian culture.
In a similar fashion the amorphous Muslim population that inhabited the region the British named Palestine during the Ottoman Empire coalesced into a national identity in opposition to the Jewish people taking over the area. Historically they didn't exist as a distinct people, but now they are one.
And while a lot of modern Palestinians may have moved into the area during the time of the British occupation, there were people living there before the British and before the Zionist movement. These people were Muslim for the most part and their families had mostly been living there for 2000 years. The Jewish people have a national identity that goes back thousands of years that they have held onto even when they didn't have land to call their own for 2000 years, which is quite an accomplishment.
One side has claims to have physically owned the land for 2000 years, even though the record keeping isn't very good, and the other side lays a historical claim to the land that is well documented. Which side is right? I can't say. I see both sides and come down right down the middle. Both are valid claims.
We also have to deal with the fact that Israel the state exists. It can't just be canceled even if someone wants to claim that a 2000 year old claim is invalid.
Again a two state solution is the best solution for everyone and a majority on both sides would probably find that acceptable. However there are actors on both sides who don't want a two state solution and are going to do everything they can to stop it. Israel is the world's most intractable problem.
Rehashing the history of the region however many dozens of times is an exercise in futility. Israel exists. Just as the United States exists. The sooner the Palestinians come to terms with that, the better their lives will be.
Tam
Well-Known Member
The Kingdom of Israel/Judah ceased to exist since the last King Zedekiah in around 586 BC until reemerged again in 1948.
Whatever lands from the Kingdom of Israel/Judah were taken away and most of the Jews went exiled all that time.
It's relevant because it teaches that if the Palestinians reject arms like the former PLO did, they would lose thanks to the "settlers.".
Peace activist Rachel Corrie did not take arms and she would be dead.
That taught the Hamas to take arms rather than to follow the example of former PLO in the West Bank and peace activists.
Destroying Gaza's hospitals, schools, neighborhood, people.. is not how to bring peace.
The IDF could win the war in Gaza but remember, the Hamas leaders are not in Gaza.
Once the Gaza is taken over by the IDF, the terrorism will restart again. Remember, the Hamas leaders are not in Gaza.
Military is not the solution. Negotiation is.
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Understanding the history is an important reminded to people who might be forgetting bits of it that are important. I do agree that everyone needs to just accept things as they are now and work out a compromise that brings about peace. But a lot of people aren't there. A lot of people in the conflict are remembering various versions of the history without acknowledging the historical claims the other side has too. Both sides have a historical claim to the land that has merit and as you point out, the Israelis are there and aren't going anywhere.
It would be nice if someone could wave a magic wand and have reason break out among everyone involved, but that isn't going to happen either.
I think the most likely thing that is going to happen is this cycle of periodic violence is just going to keep repeating until enough people get tired of the conflict. It did seem at one time that the Troubles in Northern Ireland would never end, but they did. Northern Ireland isn't the most functional place today, but at least people aren't killing one another.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Indeed, Egypt does not want Hamas to enter Egypt, but it allows humanitarian convoys from Egypt to get into Gaza.
The "Palestinians" (and I quote that because there never has been a nation of Palestine) have been committing a 75 year genocide against the people of Israel. But it's not simply them. If you go back to 1948, the armies of 5 Islamic nations invaded Israel and waged war to exterminate every Israeli Jew and eliminate the state of Israel. They were aided by the "Palestinians" and the entire Arab league. In spite of greatly outnumbering Israelis, in spite of being armed by the latest British tanks and warplanes, while Israel was under an arms embargo to prevent their genocide, the Israelis won. Against all odds, they defeated the Islamic armies trying to exterminate them.
But that was 1948-Islamic armies tried 3 more times to exterminate the Israelis, in 1956, 67 and 73...with the same outcome. And every time aided by the Palestinians. So-you'd think those nations and Palis, that share a similar desire to exterminate Jews, would be friends, right? That those nations would let those refugees into their countries, right? Lets look at what happened when they tried.
In Egypt, when Palis were welcomed, they waged war with the Muslim Brotherhood and tried to overthrow Egypt's government.
In Jordan, they assassinated the king and waged a civil war to overthrow the government.
In Lebanon, which was 70% Christian, they invaded (primarily Hezbollah), subjugated the native population, exterminated or waged pogroms to drive Christians from their lands, and waged a civil war to overthrow the government. All while launching tens of thousands of rockets at Israeli homes and slaughtering and kidnapping Israelis from across the Lebanon border.
So yeah...there is a reason NO ONE wants the "Palestinians".
dhrivnak
Active Member
So why not let them stay in the homes and land they have occupied for more than 2000 years? Why should it be OK for one group to take another groups land, mostly without compensation?
Let me know when you're ready to relinquish the land your home is on to the descendants of the Cherokee it was taken from. At least they aren't raping and murdering your family and neighbors.
If Hamas was using the aid shipments to launch rockets into Egypt and was holding 100+ Egyptians hostage - I suspect Egypt would require rigorous inspection of the aid just as Israel does.
What is Haaretz editorializing that Netanyahu should do differently? Make major defense policy decisions based on the views of the radicals, anti-Semites and young and stupid Tik Tok brigades that are taking over the left? The anti-Israeli extremists were out in force making a mess of Biden’s fundraiser last night with Obama and Clinton.
By all accounts and polling, the majority of Israelis want the IDF to finish the job where there can be no future with Hamas in power.
By all accounts and polling, the majority of Israelis want the IDF to finish the job where there can be no future with Hamas in power.
Netanyahu and Biden are both politicians....they know each other has to play to their base...and more importantly not alienate any target groups just before an election. I’m sure all of this was taken into account. Not everything that is spoken between leaders gets printed in the papers
Aside from the nuanced reasons for why they were displaced from their homes (while other Arabs were allowed to stay), historical should matter.
In 1948, I imagine not too many people would have said it was totally inappropriate for Arabs to attack Israel.
But now it's 75 years later. Those people displaced, certaintly the ones that even remember their homes, have mostly passed.
When is "grace period" over? Are Native Americans still allowed to attack cities in the U.S., since their land was legimately stolen 150-200 years ago? What about the other thousands of cases in history where a people have been displaced, should they have been "allowed" to attack back for the land in perpetuity?
The Palestinian problem is that they are treated with different rules than the "norms" established for basically everyone else. Starting with chronic "refugee" status for descendants.
Jigglypuff
Member
The PLO never rejected violence or arms. That's laughably false.
Rachel Corrie wasn't a peace activist. That's also laughably false. She was a pro-Palestinian activist who committed suicide by bulldozer.
It seems you think that if somebody does a non-violent protest some of the time while they support violence otherwise that they're somehow a peace protestor or actually participating in true non-violent protest. Oof!
Israel is killing the people who killed Israelis and who have sworn to forever strive to kill Jews. If those people should hide in the hospitals, schools, and mosques, by international law they have made those buildings legitimate military targets, and they are responsible for the fallout. In the Middle East, the only thing that brings peace is strength. This is where Biden and so many others undercut any chance of peace. Allow Israel to get the job done, and we'll have a lot more peace. Don't allow Israel to get the job done and we'll have a lot more war.
Hamas leaders will not be able to do anything about Gaza once Hamas is removed from Gaza. If they want to scream and yell from luxury hotels in Qatar, they can do that for all I care.
Gaza is already largely controlled by the IDF. It's basically just Rafah that's left. The terror never stopped. Hamas is still firing rockets here and there. Hezbollah is consistently attacking. There is no real difference between Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and the Houthis etc etc etc. They're all players on the same terror team.
The Arab world sees negotiation as weakness, and weakness draws war. It's just like the playground bully picking on the apparent weakling. You're just asking for more war, and there are enough people like you that more war is what we're getting.
Tam
Well-Known Member
PLO aide calls for disarming guerrillas - UPI Archives
A Palestine Liberation Organization official has urged Palestinian guerrillas in Lebanon to disarm and move to the self-rule areas in the West Bank and Gaza...
www.upi.com
Arafat Reportedly Agrees To Disarm, Leave Lebanon
"Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat agreed in principle tonight to order his forces to lay down their arms and leave Beirut with him"
Israel recognizes PLO, which renounces violence - UPI Archives
Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization formally recognized each other Thursday and were ready to sign a historic agreement gradually granting...
www.upi.com
