This idea reminds me of the artificial Mulberry harbors constructed for the D-Day landings.
U.S. Military to Build Floating Pier to Ferry Gaza Aid, White House Says
U.S. Military to Build Floating Pier to Ferry Gaza Aid, White House Says
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Israel/Hamas conflict
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
Jigglypuff
Member
Jigglypuff
Member
That just shows you buy into the starvation narrative Hamas is not only pushing but enforcing by continuing this war. The obese women don't look like they're suffering any food shortage. If you want more food in Gaza, push Hamas to surrender and return the hostages. Or maybe Hamas can break out the food from their tunnel stashes.
Tam
Well-Known Member
If I pull out the pin from the grenade, if it doesn't explode into my face now, it will sooner or later.
When the occupier killed and displaced the existing inhabitants in 1948 into refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza, that's the moment the grenade lost the pin, and it would, in turn, explode any time.
As long as the occupation continues to exist, the cycle of revenge killings would and will continue in the past, present, and future.
The military might of the occupiers created the illusion of safety with walls and military checkpoints, but remember, the occupiers pulled out the pin of the grenade, and it would explode someday.
The powerful occupiers can win any battle over the weaker inhabitants the same way as the US won every battle in Afghanistan for 20 years but that didn't bring peace and safety for the occupiers. They had to watch over their shoulders and dodged the bullets every day for 20 years.
That's the cost of occupation and military might, which is the opposite of peace and safety.
When Israel cut off water, food, electricity, and medicine and dropped 2,000-pound bombs into the crowded population, you can still see "fat" people, but remember; it's just like pulling out a grenade pin: It doesn't have an effect right away, but it will.
The only solution is diplomacy, not military.
Last edited:
Maybe pick up a book or read an article on what happened in 1948/49. The British left and the surrounding countries joined the local Palestinians and invaded Israeli territory. The original aggressors in 1948 were the Palestinian Arabs. Israel won that war and expanded slightly outside of the original UN mandated borders. All the rest of the expansion came with more wars where the Arab nations attacked. So that "grenade" was and still is in the terrorists' hands. Israel has done bad things, especially under Netanyahu, but the small areas that the Palestinians have left is directly related to their multiple attempts through the decades to eliminate Israel. Maybe if both sides stop killing for their religious delusions and work together they could have great lives.
Tiger
Active Member
The better grenade pin analogy does have to get 80 year old history laughably wrong. The better grenade analogy is:
When the rape jihadist violated the existing peacetime and killed and burned the civilian inhabitants on October 7, 2023 in the Music festivals and farms, that's the moment the grenade lost the pin, and it would, in turn, explode in response.
As long as the hostages are not released, and rape jihadists escape prosecution, the rule of law and the rules of war will be applied to bring justice to the rape jihadists terrorists. The rule of law and rules of war will continue in the past, present, and future.
That's the cost of rule of law and rules of war for those who violate peace and safety.
The only solution is bringing the rape jihadist, and those who support them to justice.
When the rape jihadist violated the existing peacetime and killed and burned the civilian inhabitants on October 7, 2023 in the Music festivals and farms, that's the moment the grenade lost the pin, and it would, in turn, explode in response.
As long as the hostages are not released, and rape jihadists escape prosecution, the rule of law and the rules of war will be applied to bring justice to the rape jihadists terrorists. The rule of law and rules of war will continue in the past, present, and future.
That's the cost of rule of law and rules of war for those who violate peace and safety.
The only solution is bringing the rape jihadist, and those who support them to justice.
Jigglypuff
Member
Tell that to the Palestinians, who have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The only reason Bibi is even in power in Israel right now is because of Hamas. They empower the absolute worst in the world.
Jigglypuff
Member
Starting in 1946 is cherry picking to absurdity. The history of Jews in Israel goes back literally thousands of years, to around 1800 BC, and there has been a continuous and often subjugated Jewish presence every since. The size of Israel varied over the years, but at some points it was much, much larger than modern Israel. The history of Islam in Israel goes back to conquests in the 600s AD. Any historical discussion should go back thousands of years. Subjugation of Jews in Israel by Islam began then.
Two fun facts:
# of Muslim citizens in Israel: About 1,700,000.
# of Jewish citizens in Islamic nations: About 30,000.
You want to have a talk about ethnic cleansing? Figure out the numbers before 1948, since that's your favorite year.
The war in Israel is not and has never been a conflict between Palestinians and Jews. Palestinians are just a newish identity subgroup of Arabs, who are mostly Muslim. This is a conflict between Islam and Judaism, with Christianity throwing a stone now and then.
As for the terms like Jew, Arab, Muslim, and Islam, they have fluid, multi-faceted, and often clashing uses.
Two fun facts:
# of Muslim citizens in Israel: About 1,700,000.
# of Jewish citizens in Islamic nations: About 30,000.
You want to have a talk about ethnic cleansing? Figure out the numbers before 1948, since that's your favorite year.
The war in Israel is not and has never been a conflict between Palestinians and Jews. Palestinians are just a newish identity subgroup of Arabs, who are mostly Muslim. This is a conflict between Islam and Judaism, with Christianity throwing a stone now and then.
As for the terms like Jew, Arab, Muslim, and Islam, they have fluid, multi-faceted, and often clashing uses.
Tam
Well-Known Member
You are correct that I cherry-picked the timeline.
The rationale is how far back should we go back?
I would say we should go back to when the world came together as a United Nations.
Otherwise, American Natives could take back Washington, D.C., because they were there first, and the Europeans were late discoverers.
Yes, Israel was in Israel long ago when God promised them "a land flowing with milk and honey."
Remember that despite the promise, that land already had natives living there at that time, and God instructed Joshua to exterminate the natives there.
The extermination was successful, and the Israelis got the land that God promised.
They were prosperous and independent until various empires conquered the land: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, and Roman Empires. The population of the Jews during those occupations drastically decreased, as most went exiled. The last King of Judah was Zedekiah, who reigned 597-586 BC.
Atrocities and mass killings of civilians happened in the past, but as the world becomes more connected, such behaviors are no longer tolerated, and the United Nations has agreed on international laws to deal with the mistreatment of civilians.
The United Nations agreed to divide the land between Israelis and the Palestinians.
Israel agreed, and the state of Israel was then again created in 1948.
Just like when Joshua came to take the land flowing with milk and honey, inhabitants already lived there. Those inhabitants were forced to leave or be killed.
Since the creation of the state of Israel, Israel has not honored the borders and considers the whole area from the river to the sea to be one state: the State of Israel, which includes the West Bank (Eat Jerusalem) and Gaza.
Israelis have been invading the West Bank and Gaza since 1948. Palestinians who abandoned their farms and preserved their lives and those who insisted on staying in the West Bank and Gaza were harassed and killed daily.
The United Nations considers Israelis an occupation force and has to abide by international law even in case of occupying another land, West Bank and Gaza.
In 1400 BC, "So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."
However, in 1400 BC, there were no United Nations at that time. There was only God!
In 1948, the United Nations was created 3 years earlier in 1945.
Powerful nations must follow international laws even when they can occupy lands.
Jigglypuff
Member
The UN is a corrupt, hateful institution that does as much if not more evil than good. The world has been just drowning in unity since its forming. UNWRA is an evil institution whose only purpose is to continue the suffering of a subclass of Arabs as a weapon against Jews.
In this analogy, Jews are natives, and Islam wants to expel the Jews from their reservations. Israel isn't trying to take over the whole of the middle east, and Israel was a sparesely inhabited desert in the early 20th century. Also, in this analogy, the rest of the US would bar Jews and make travel difficult.
There were many discussions of land partitions over the years. The Jews and Muslims settled in earnest and violence for decades before 1948. The UN made a partition plan and had a vote, but that was but 1/10th of the law. The other 9/10ths were settled through war, ending in an armistice in 1949, and more wars over the following decades, another of which is happening now. The UN did not establish Israel, and the UN did not give Israel legitimacy. Guns did, sad to say. Such is life.
The Arabs never agreed to this plan. An agreement by one side is not an agreement at all. And then the Arabs went to full war. And they lost and lost and lost. The partition plan did not create the state of Israel. It was truly formed on May 14, 1948.
The Arabs were instructed to flee, and many fled. Some were expelled. Many stayed, and their descendants are now citizens of Israel. The entire Nakba is a lie proven by the over 1.7 million Muslim citizens of Israel. The real Nakba is all the Jews who were expelled from Islamic nations that are essentially or completely judenfrei. How people repeatedly talk about genocide against a long growing population boggles my mind. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
The UN did not form the state of Israel. Repeated wars formed the state of Israel.
International law is a joke. Today, as the Pope calls for Kiev to kowtow to Moscow, we know what we have all known for a long time: Might keeps a person safe, and weakness makes a person a victim. October 7th was a reminder to Israel of the cost of weakness, Netanyahu's great failure. The Israeli response is a reminder to all of Israel's overall strength, and the entire world's disgust in a strong Jewish people.
If one is to have an academic discussion, it would be as poorly advised to cite the Jewish Bible (the Tanach), the New Testament, Quran, Book of Mormon, etc. as it would be the mythologies of Ancient Greece or elsewhere as reliable sources of history.
Otherwise, speaking of biblical Joshua, one would have to take literally that: on the day the Lord gave the Amorites over Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel ”O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon”. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies.
Like any honest analysis, we should look at the whole scope of credible evidence, thus should go back as far as we reliably can - the point being NOT to cherry pick.
History is strongly indicative of brutal tribal warfare, a thing everywhere throughout the world as civilizations moved through developmental stages. Relevant or not, there is no good archeological evidence that the ancient Israelites were anything other than native to that land. We cannot rely on interpretations of fantastical mythologies.
What we do know for certain, however, is that Jews have deep historical ties to and lived continuously in Israel/Palestine since ancient times, even when in relatively small numbers (due to incessant colonialism, pogroms, and outright genocides inflicted against them there and widely abroad). The historical record also shows numerous attempts of the diaspora to return to the land of Israel.
Every surviving civilization at some point moved through the tribal/Stone Age stage. Yet Israel/Judah (aka the Jews) existed once not just loosely as such tribes, but evolved into a kingdom from the Bronze Age and into the Iron Age and beyond. Christianity would not show up until much later and Islam significantly farther still.
Here are a few key events in the timeline of Israel to it’s re-establishment as a nation:
~1200 BCE Merneptah Stele - Egyptian - an inscribed stone slab created, the first known archeologically documented reference to Israel in historical record
928 Israel divides into Kingdoms of Israel and Judah
870 Tel Dan Stele created, the first reference to King David from outside of the Bible
715-687 reign of King Hezekiah of Judah
649-609 reign of King Josiah of Judah
604 Philistines (modern day Gaza Strip region) disappear - NOT related to modern day Palestinians
597 Nebuchadnezzar's first siege of Jerusalem and deportation of Jews begins
587 Destruction of Solomon's Temple by the Babylonians, most Jews exiled
538 Cyrus (King of Persia) allows Jews in Babylon to return to Jerusalem
520-515 Second Temple is built
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans
129 - 63 Jewish independence under Hasmoneans
70 AD Second Temple destroyed by Rome
132-135 Second Jewish Revolt in Judea against Roman occupation under Emperor Hadrian
363 Emperor Julian promises to allow Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple but is killed and the plan is abandoned
570 birth of Muhammad
610-632 the rise of Islam on the Arab peninsula
691 Dome of the Rock built on the Jewish holy site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem
711 Islamic colonialism expands to Europe where armies invade Spain and occupy large areas
1099 Crusaders briefly capture the Jerusalem Temple and massacre the Jews of Jerusalem
1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem
1517-1917 Ottoman rule
Mid-1800s after the conquest of Muhammad Ali and his son Ibrahim Pasha, large numbers of Arab military families immigrated from Egypt to Palestine
1860 First Jewish neighborhood built outside walls of Jerusalem's Old City
1882-1903 1st modern Jewish large scale immigration
1904-14 2nd modern Jewish large scale immigration
1918-48 British rule
1919-23 3rd modern Jewish large scale immigration
1924-32 4th modern Jewish large scale immigration
1933-39 5th modern Jewish large scale immigration
1947 UN resolution recommending partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem under international administration; Jewish leaders accept the plan, Arab states and those who would become modern Palestinians reject it
May 14, 1948 Israel declares independence; Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon invade; Israel survives and expands territory
1940-50s 900,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries - the Jewish naqba that anti-Zionists never talk about - their descendants now are a majority of Israelis
Otherwise, speaking of biblical Joshua, one would have to take literally that: on the day the Lord gave the Amorites over Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel ”O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon”. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies.
Like any honest analysis, we should look at the whole scope of credible evidence, thus should go back as far as we reliably can - the point being NOT to cherry pick.
History is strongly indicative of brutal tribal warfare, a thing everywhere throughout the world as civilizations moved through developmental stages. Relevant or not, there is no good archeological evidence that the ancient Israelites were anything other than native to that land. We cannot rely on interpretations of fantastical mythologies.
What we do know for certain, however, is that Jews have deep historical ties to and lived continuously in Israel/Palestine since ancient times, even when in relatively small numbers (due to incessant colonialism, pogroms, and outright genocides inflicted against them there and widely abroad). The historical record also shows numerous attempts of the diaspora to return to the land of Israel.
Every surviving civilization at some point moved through the tribal/Stone Age stage. Yet Israel/Judah (aka the Jews) existed once not just loosely as such tribes, but evolved into a kingdom from the Bronze Age and into the Iron Age and beyond. Christianity would not show up until much later and Islam significantly farther still.
Here are a few key events in the timeline of Israel to it’s re-establishment as a nation:
~1200 BCE Merneptah Stele - Egyptian - an inscribed stone slab created, the first known archeologically documented reference to Israel in historical record
928 Israel divides into Kingdoms of Israel and Judah
870 Tel Dan Stele created, the first reference to King David from outside of the Bible
715-687 reign of King Hezekiah of Judah
649-609 reign of King Josiah of Judah
604 Philistines (modern day Gaza Strip region) disappear - NOT related to modern day Palestinians
597 Nebuchadnezzar's first siege of Jerusalem and deportation of Jews begins
587 Destruction of Solomon's Temple by the Babylonians, most Jews exiled
538 Cyrus (King of Persia) allows Jews in Babylon to return to Jerusalem
520-515 Second Temple is built
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans
129 - 63 Jewish independence under Hasmoneans
70 AD Second Temple destroyed by Rome
132-135 Second Jewish Revolt in Judea against Roman occupation under Emperor Hadrian
363 Emperor Julian promises to allow Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple but is killed and the plan is abandoned
570 birth of Muhammad
610-632 the rise of Islam on the Arab peninsula
691 Dome of the Rock built on the Jewish holy site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem
711 Islamic colonialism expands to Europe where armies invade Spain and occupy large areas
1099 Crusaders briefly capture the Jerusalem Temple and massacre the Jews of Jerusalem
1187 Saladin conquers Jerusalem
1517-1917 Ottoman rule
Mid-1800s after the conquest of Muhammad Ali and his son Ibrahim Pasha, large numbers of Arab military families immigrated from Egypt to Palestine
1860 First Jewish neighborhood built outside walls of Jerusalem's Old City
1882-1903 1st modern Jewish large scale immigration
1904-14 2nd modern Jewish large scale immigration
1918-48 British rule
1919-23 3rd modern Jewish large scale immigration
1924-32 4th modern Jewish large scale immigration
1933-39 5th modern Jewish large scale immigration
1947 UN resolution recommending partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem under international administration; Jewish leaders accept the plan, Arab states and those who would become modern Palestinians reject it
May 14, 1948 Israel declares independence; Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon invade; Israel survives and expands territory
1940-50s 900,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries - the Jewish naqba that anti-Zionists never talk about - their descendants now are a majority of Israelis
Tiger
Active Member
Just a thought, since the "border" is now open, why not ship all willing people from Palestine? They should qualify for asylum. Probably vet for bad apples.
/s
/s
Jigglypuff
Member
Best article yet on the war: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/opinion/israel-hamas-war-military.html
Jigglypuff
Member
‘They Wanted to Dance in Peace. And They Got Slaughtered’
Israel's Supernova festival celebrated music and unity. It turned into the deadliest concert attack in history
Total nonsense.
West Bank was annexed by Jordan and Gaza annexed by Egypt after 1948 war. Israel wasn't occupying either.
Then, in 1966, armed Arab forces began coming to the Israeli borders as Egypt block Israeli ships from using the Straight of Tiran (which Israeli stated it would interpret as a declaration of war). So, Israeli fought the Arab forces and won....again.
Now Israel occupied West Bank and Gaza. After 1966 and winning a second war started by Arab aggression.
And then a 3rd in 1973.
It's not like Israel is just trying to grab up land left and right in perpetuity. They gave back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in a peace treaty.
So why occupy West Bank and Gaza? Maybe it has something to do with the risk of aggression these territories hold? I mean, they already started multiple wars, so makes sense to secure considering how close they are to dense Israeli cities.
Then there was the 1st intifada. Not gonna help people feel safe.
Then there was an attempt at peace accords. Most Palestinians were totally against a peace deal unless it allowed them to return to Israel. That wasn't respectiing Israeli sovereignty so you can see why that never proceeded.
In 2005, Israel removed settlements and stopped occupying Gaza. In turn they voted in Hamas and began more attack campaigns. Is it really a shock that Israel has a blockade (so does Egypt) when a territory is bombing you with missiles made from pipes? Like you don't think they would import more deadly rockets if they could?
Listen, some Arabs got a raw deal when displaced from their homes in 1947/1948. Some were pushed out, some fled, some refused to accept the jewish state, and some did. 20% of Israel is Arab.
But that was 75 years ago. The people who lived there and were displaced are mostly dead. The "refugees" currently are all mostly born in Gaza / West Bank, they know no other life. The original homes in Israel are gone - replaced by apartments.
These poor Palestinians are deeply brainwashed. It's unforunate. It's unfortunate that they are so brainwashed they've even caused terror in
1) Lebonan
2) Jordan
3) Egypt
4) Kuwait
That those countries tried to kick them out. Did you know hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that lived in Kuwait decided to side with Saddam Hussein when he invaded in the Iraq War because Yasser Arafat said to? Then when Kuwait won, they immediately displaced almost all of them? Why aren't Palestinians complaining about that displacement? It was much more recent?
Why does the western media focus only on this fighting like no other?
Might it have something to do with one side being Jewish?
Millions of people in Europe and Europe's former colonies in Asia and Africa got raw deals after WWII. Some deserved it, other didn't.
Hundreds of millions around the world were relocated (i.e. "ethnically cleansed") to account for the new realities on the ground or to escape religious persecution from radical Islamists.
While most of the world carried on - the UN and some sympathetic countries decided to keep Palestinians in perpetual "refugee" status giving them false hope they would someday be able to take back all of Israel if they just keep up their maximal demands.
And here we are 75+ years later with a thoroughly wrecked society and culture like we currently see in Gaza.
