Help me decide: Model Y or Mach-E

[pepperoni]

Not even close. You might want to do research about battery thermal management system problems in machE.

Only an issue on the GT and GTPE trims. The Premium doesn't have any power throttling.

I’ll go a step further and say that I have yet to see any real evidence of an “issue” or “problem” here. Yes, I’m aware of that insideevs article connecting the power throttling with a hypothetical “thermal bottleneck,” but if you read the article closely it’s clear that it is based only on a hypothesis, lots of speculation from YouTube screenshots, and made up data. A big nothingburger. If there is hard data out there pointing to “battery thermal management system problems” I would sure like to see it before I commit my hard earned dollars to one of these cars.

As @TallGear suggested above, the only “issue” so far is a software limitation imposed by Ford while they get more real world data on a new car design. The last thing Ford needs is a disastrous recall like GM is facing, so who can blame them. Ford is already unlocking more capability in its charging curve, so that is at least some evidence that they are being conservative. I agree with the statement that more hoses and complexity can lead to more failure points, but again this doesn’t indicate a “problem” but instead more opportunities for design optimization in the future.

I will say that in reading many of the comments on the Mach-E forum, there certainly are a few folks irritated by the 5 second throttling on the GT. Most of this irritation stems from Ford’s decision to brand this car with the GT moniker (which means something to Ford guys) and not from their real world driving experience. On a car that goes 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, 5 seconds of hard acceleration is not something that happens all that often unless you’re on the track. Most of the GT owners love their cars anyway, even in spite of this limitation.

 

[Zorg]

More EVs is better. More competition is also good.

 

[thesmokingman]

I’ll go a step further and say that I have yet to see any real evidence of an “issue” or “problem” here. Yes, I’m aware of that insideevs article connecting the power throttling with a hypothetical “thermal bottleneck,” but if you read the article closely it’s clear that it is based only on a hypothesis, lots of speculation from YouTube screenshots, and made up data. A big nothingburger. If there is hard data out there pointing to “battery thermal management system problems” I would sure like to see it before I commit my hard earned dollars to one of these cars.

As @TallGear suggested above, the only “issue” so far is a software limitation imposed by Ford while they get more real world data on a new car design. The last thing Ford needs is a disastrous recall like GM is facing, so who can blame them. Ford is already unlocking more capability in its charging curve, so that is at least some evidence that they are being conservative. I agree with the statement that more hoses and complexity can lead to more failure points, but again this doesn’t indicate a “problem” but instead more opportunities for design optimization in the future.

I will say that in reading many of the comments on the Mach-E forum, there certainly are a few folks irritated by the 5 second throttling on the GT. Most of this irritation stems from Ford’s decision to brand this car with the GT moniker (which means something to Ford guys) and not from their real world driving experience. On a car that goes 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, 5 seconds of hard acceleration is not something that happens all that often unless you’re on the track. Most of the GT owners love their cars anyway, even in spite of this limitation.

It's so bizarre the way you are apologetic for Ford. Not only has Ford mislead with advertising they did not disclose the limitation at ANY time. Owners were left scratching their head while they see it happening on their power meters. And now we have posters like you who act like it's not a big deal. Class actions have been brought forth and buybacks and penalties have been issued for much less horsepower loss and on the Ford owners are stating its something to the tune of 40% power reduction when it throttles. You guys are mind boggling. If Tesla did something like this it'd be the end of the world for some.

Mazda Overstates RX-8 Power

The Daily Auto Insider: Mazda has revealed that it published an inaccurate horsepower rating for its new RX-8.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

[mrwug]

At the end of the day, this complexity of the design decisions made by Ford will hinder their reliability, and will cripple profit and flexible manufacturing. More parts = more headaches when supply chains are stressed.

The whole supply chain thing cuts both ways for the legacy automakers. I wouldn't be surprised if they're attempting to maximize reuse of existing part SKUs in the new designs. Given the current supply chain challenges, that's not the worst decision in the world. I still think Sandy's right about having too many hoses / clamps in the design, though.

 

[Whatstreet]

I don’t know wtf you’re even talking about. I’m not debating the fact that it throttles power is dumb, just stating that fact that it’s a software imposed limit and not hardware. Theres nothing special about the heat generation of an EV that coolant hoses can’t handle. And if you’re comparing a MachE non-GT to a MYLR, it’s a non-issue since only the GT gets throttled back

It is also the reason the Mach-e comes in dead last in every charge rate comparison, regardless of the trim level.

 

[pepperoni]

It's so bizarre the way you are apologetic for Ford. Not only has Ford mislead with advertising they did not disclose the limitation at ANY time. Owners were left scratching their head while they see it happening on their power meters. And now we have posters like you who act like it's not a big deal. Class actions have been brought forth and buybacks and penalties have been issued for much less horsepower loss and on the Ford owners are stating its something to the tune of 40% power reduction when it throttles. You guys are mind boggling. If Tesla did something like this it'd be the end of the world for some.

Mazda Overstates RX-8 Power

The Daily Auto Insider: Mazda has revealed that it published an inaccurate horsepower rating for its new RX-8.

www.roadandtrack.com

No, Tesla would never be guilty of undisclosed battery throttling. Oh, wait…

Tesla owners could get $625 each in class action settlement over battery throttling

Tesla agreed to pay $1.5 million to settle claims that its over-the-air software update limited battery voltage, therefore range, in some Model S sedans.

www.cnbc.com

And charge speed throttling…

Tesla is again found guilty of throttling charging speed, asked to pay $14,000 to owners in retrial

Tesla was again found guilty of throttling its Superchargering speed on early Model S vehicles. In Norway, the company is...

electrek.co

I’m not making excuses for Ford, and there are indeed early buyers of the GT who feel duped by the marketing. If a Ford is marketed as a GT “Performance Edition,” people are going to get upset when their $70K car doesn’t perform the way they thought it would. I can’t see a class action here though as there was no false advertising, just omission. But honestly, there seem to be more people on the Tesla forum making hay over this than I see over on the Ford forum, who are too busy enjoying their cars.

 

[Whatstreet]

No, I have a background in electrical engineering and know what they’re doing with their initial roll-out of a brand new vehicle platform. With OTA they can slowly unlock more capacity and back off the nannying as they incrementally analyze warranty claim rates for motor and battery issues related to overheating with each round of updates. You don’t cannibalize your brands strongest trademark for another product without building in some guiderails and KPIs to monitor.

I'm sure you thought the same thing about the Chevrolet Bolt.

 

[thesmokingman]

No, Tesla would never be guilty of undisclosed battery throttling. Oh, wait…

Tesla owners could get $625 each in class action settlement over battery throttling

Tesla agreed to pay $1.5 million to settle claims that its over-the-air software update limited battery voltage, therefore range, in some Model S sedans.

www.cnbc.com

And charge speed throttling…

Tesla is again found guilty of throttling charging speed, asked to pay $14,000 to owners in retrial

Tesla was again found guilty of throttling its Superchargering speed on early Model S vehicles. In Norway, the company is...

electrek.co

I’m not making excuses for Ford, and there are indeed early buyers of the GT who feel duped by the marketing. If a Ford is marketed as a GT “Performance Edition,” people are going to get upset when their $70K car doesn’t perform the way they thought it would. I can’t see a class action here though as there was no false advertising, just omission. But honestly, there seem to be more people on the Tesla forum making hay over this than I see over on the Ford forum, who are too busy enjoying their cars.

There you go again, keep making more excuses. And what Tesla did on the older cars was a safety thing, albeit in the wrong way it is not the same as what Ford did. And just an omission, like what Mazda did?

 

[Whatstreet]

No, Tesla would never be guilty of undisclosed battery throttling. Oh, wait…

Tesla owners could get $625 each in class action settlement over battery throttling

Tesla agreed to pay $1.5 million to settle claims that its over-the-air software update limited battery voltage, therefore range, in some Model S sedans.

www.cnbc.com

And charge speed throttling…

Tesla is again found guilty of throttling charging speed, asked to pay $14,000 to owners in retrial

Tesla was again found guilty of throttling its Superchargering speed on early Model S vehicles. In Norway, the company is...

electrek.co

I’m not making excuses for Ford, and there are indeed early buyers of the GT who feel duped by the marketing. If a Ford is marketed as a GT “Performance Edition,” people are going to get upset when their $70K car doesn’t perform the way they thought it would. I can’t see a class action here though as there was no false advertising, just omission. But honestly, there seem to be more people on the Tesla forum making hay over this than I see over on the Ford forum, who are too busy enjoying their cars.

I have seen your posts on the Mach-e forum. I can now see that you may have an emotional bias towards the Mach-e.

I was considering the Mache-e over the Model-Y because of the plain Model-y dash and because the price of the Mach-e after tax incentives was less than the Model-Y. My conclusion is while the Mach-e may be less money with current tax incentives, given the performance of all trims, it should be. It weighs five hundred pounds more. It charges much slower on level 3. It has less range and is harder to find a place to charge it when on a road trip. It will have greater range reduction in cold weather. It's not as fast and not as quick.

If those gaudy horse decorations mean that much to you, well then that's your car.

The Build Back Better Bill has put a new spin on things. I am waiting on this decision now. Price is always a concern when making a purchasing decision. However, you will get what you pay for.

 

[Montucky]

The whole supply chain thing cuts both ways for the legacy automakers. I wouldn't be surprised if they're attempting to maximize reuse of existing part SKUs in the new designs. Given the current supply chain challenges, that's not the worst decision in the world. I still think Sandy's right about having too many hoses / clamps in the design, though.

You're exactly right, but it's not a benefit. It forces Ford, VW, etc. to use legacy "parts bin" parts to maximize reuse, but that ultimately end up hindering the overall design. Tesla didn't have a bunch of legacy parts and modules to carry over from previous projects, so they could start fresh and streamline their overall architecture.

Monroe had a great round table about that exact thing. It's shocking how much more streamlined and efficient the Tesla architecure is when compared to VW and Ford:

 

[pepperoni]

More EVs is better. More competition is also good.

This is a really important comment. Tesla is a really innovative company, which is the secret to its success and the reason it now has the best EV lineup in the world. I don't see it falling into second place for a very long time. However, to keep that innovation going Tesla needs the competition. As an analogy, the Apple iPhone is the most successful smart phone in the world. However, without all those Android phones out there, I doubt the iPhone would be as polished as it is today or that Apple would continue to improve its product year after year. So... all you Tesla fans out there, please cheer for the other EVs coming to market too. The more Rivian and Lucid and Ford and VW and (yes) GM improve their products, the more Tesla will be forced to up its game. And the better that will be for all of us in the future.

And by the way... although I haven't made a decision yet I am still (slightly) leaning Tesla. No doubt, side by side, the technology and drivetrain are superior. I appreciate all the great comments on this thread. These days I'm mostly just killing time waiting for a car to arrive rather than information gathering. The two biggest factors are 1) which car gets here first, and 2) whether the BBB passes since the Ford still gets the legacy credit. Not looking great on 2) as of the Sunday news talk shows morning but I do still have some hope that something will get passed.

 

[Corndart]

This is a really important comment. Tesla is a really innovative company, which is the secret to its success and the reason it now has the best EV lineup in the world. I don't see it falling into second place for a very long time. However, to keep that innovation going Tesla needs the competition. As an analogy, the Apple iPhone is the most successful smart phone in the world. However, without all those Android phones out there, I doubt the iPhone would be as polished as it is today or that Apple would continue to improve its product year after year. So... all you Tesla fans out there, please cheer for the other EVs coming to market too. The more Rivian and Lucid and Ford and VW and (yes) GM improve their products, the more Tesla will be forced to up its game. And the better that will be for all of us in the future.

And by the way... although I haven't made a decision yet I am still (slightly) leaning Tesla. No doubt, side by side, the technology and drivetrain are superior. I appreciate all the great comments on this thread. These days I'm mostly just killing time waiting for a car to arrive rather than information gathering. The two biggest factors are 1) which car gets here first, and 2) whether the BBB passes since the Ford still gets the legacy credit. Not looking great on 2) as of the Sunday news talk shows morning but I do still have some hope that something will get passed.

You keep talking as if this is Ford's first fully electric vehicle and that Tesla has had no competition throughout their roughly 15 year existence. Ford have been grinding on this for the better part of 12-13 years (Focus Electric, introduced in 2011, design probably started at least a few years prior), with PHEV's in the Fusion, C-Max and Escape. GM and VW have also been working at this for quite some time (PHEV / BEV). The Mach E is more analogous to what the M3 and MY are for Tesla. It should have been a substantially better designed vehicle, but to me it's emblematic of the innovators dilemma, and the widely held belief that traditional automakers can't pivot and execute. Yes I've driven one, and if the M3 and MY didn't exist, it would probably be better received.

They're going to get eaten from the bottom by the Chinese EV's, and squeezed at the top by Tesla and others. There's going to be no place to go for the traditional carmakers, they sat on their butts too long and didn't recognize the young lions coming to steal their pride.

Your phone analogy is interesting. This is like Ballmer with Windows Mobile, wanting it to be a portable Windows desktop, and RIM sitting pretty on Blackberry and BES servers, not realizing the iPhone and G1 were going to completely disrupt the smartphone market and pack their lunch quickly. Where are Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Nokia, HTC, Motorola, Ericson? They are all gone or husks of former selves. And btw iPhone is not the most successful smart phone in the world, they haven't been number one in quite some time, and the cumulative Android market place is something like 4x IOS. I don't think Apple pays much if any attention to Android, except maybe flagship phone features. They just keep building their moat with mid and upper market buyers, anchored around the iPhone, bolstered by the watch, the tablet (shrinking market that it may be), and the shockingly great new m1x devices that all just work pretty great together. Tesla / Lucid / Rivian are Apple. Nio, Fisker and some of the other Chinese brands are Android.

 

[voxel]

As a former Model Y and former Mach-E owner (traded it for RAV4 Prime!)... there's a new kid on the block that's better than both IMO

Ioniq 5.

I still think it looks hideous but it fixes the problems of the ID.4 (crap infotainment, slow, budget interior). The major problem with the Model Y and Mach-E is the harsh ride and slow-ish charging. Neither are great family SUVs... they are more performance station wagons.

The reviews have been glowing for the Ioniq 5 to my surprise.

 

[Davidw4806]

You keep talking as if this is Ford's first fully electric vehicle and that Tesla has had no competition throughout their roughly 15 year existence. Ford have been grinding on this for the better part of 12-13 years (Focus Electric, introduced in 2011, design probably started at least a few years prior), with PHEV's in the Fusion, C-Max and Escape. GM and VW have also been working at this for quite some time (PHEV / BEV). The Mach E is more analogous to what the M3 and MY are for Tesla. It should have been a substantially better designed vehicle, but to me it's emblematic of the innovators dilemma, and the widely held belief that traditional automakers can't pivot and execute. Yes I've driven one, and if the M3 and MY didn't exist, it would probably be better received.

They're going to get eaten from the bottom by the Chinese EV's, and squeezed at the top by Tesla and others. There's going to be no place to go for the traditional carmakers, they sat on their butts too long and didn't recognize the young lions coming to steal their pride.

Your phone analogy is interesting. This is like Ballmer with Windows Mobile, wanting it to be a portable Windows desktop, and RIM sitting pretty on Blackberry and BES servers, not realizing the iPhone and G1 were going to completely disrupt the smartphone market and pack their lunch quickly. Where are Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Nokia, HTC, Motorola, Ericson? They are all gone or husks of former selves. And btw iPhone is not the most successful smart phone in the world, they haven't been number one in quite some time, and the cumulative Android market place is something like 4x IOS. I don't think Apple pays much if any attention to Android, except maybe flagship phone features. They just keep building their moat with mid and upper market buyers, anchored around the iPhone, bolstered by the watch, the tablet (shrinking market that it may be), and the shockingly great new m1x devices that all just work pretty great together. Tesla / Lucid / Rivian are Apple. Nio, Fisker and some of the other Chinese brands are Android.

You misinterpret Android as competing against an iPhone. iPhone us a physical device and the only phone allowed to use IOS. Android is an operating system, that is not even the same on all phones using Android, and so you cannot add up all the Android devices and claim they are winning. iPhone outsells the Samsung phones and Samsung is the leader for phones that use Android.

 

[pepperoni]

You keep talking as if this is Ford's first fully electric vehicle and that Tesla has had no competition throughout their roughly 15 year existence. Ford have been grinding on this for the better part of 12-13 years (Focus Electric, introduced in 2011, design probably started at least a few years prior), with PHEV's in the Fusion, C-Max and Escape. GM and VW have also been working at this for quite some time (PHEV / BEV). The Mach E is more analogous to what the M3 and MY are for Tesla. It should have been a substantially better designed vehicle, but to me it's emblematic of the innovators dilemma, and the widely held belief that traditional automakers can't pivot and execute. Yes I've driven one, and if the M3 and MY didn't exist, it would probably be better received.

They're going to get eaten from the bottom by the Chinese EV's, and squeezed at the top by Tesla and others. There's going to be no place to go for the traditional carmakers, they sat on their butts too long and didn't recognize the young lions coming to steal their pride.

Your phone analogy is interesting. This is like Ballmer with Windows Mobile, wanting it to be a portable Windows desktop, and RIM sitting pretty on Blackberry and BES servers, not realizing the iPhone and G1 were going to completely disrupt the smartphone market and pack their lunch quickly. Where are Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Nokia, HTC, Motorola, Ericson? They are all gone or husks of former selves. And btw iPhone is not the most successful smart phone in the world, they haven't been number one in quite some time, and the cumulative Android market place is something like 4x IOS. I don't think Apple pays much if any attention to Android, except maybe flagship phone features. They just keep building their moat with mid and upper market buyers, anchored around the iPhone, bolstered by the watch, the tablet (shrinking market that it may be), and the shockingly great new m1x devices that all just work pretty great together. Tesla / Lucid / Rivian are Apple. Nio, Fisker and some of the other Chinese brands are Android.

Regarding smartphones, you are correct and I was sloppy with the analogy comparing the Apple iPhone with Android (an OS). A better comparison would have been Apple vs other smartphone manufacturers, with a quick Google search showing that Samsung leads in total units sold (321 vs 217 million) while Apple leads in revenue ($275 vs $211 billion). This is as of 2020 from this site. So bad analogy on my part, but a good example of industry disruption as you pointed out.

 

[Corndart]

You misinterpret Android as competing against an iPhone. iPhone us a physical device and the only phone allowed to use IOS. Android is an operating system, that is not even the same on all phones using Android, and so you cannot add up all the Android devices and claim they are winning. iPhone outsells the Samsung phones and Samsung is the leader for phones that use Android.

Uh cool story but nope.

Counterpoint

www.counterpointresearch.com

 

[Corndart]

As a former Model Y and former Mach-E owner (traded it for RAV4 Prime!)... there's a new kid on the block that's better than both IMO

Ioniq 5.

I still think it looks hideous but it fixes the problems of the ID.4 (crap infotainment, slow, budget interior). The major problem with the Model Y and Mach-E is the harsh ride and slow-ish charging. Neither are great family SUVs... they are more performance station wagons.

The reviews have been glowing for the Ioniq 5 to my surprise.

Yeah I would definitely agree the Ioniq 5 looks very interesting, same with Nio ET5 and Fisker Ocean. Competition is surely coming, but I don't think Tesla needs to worry about the traditional old school traditionals, they're still making electric buggy whips.

 

[voxel]

Yeah I would definitely agree the Ioniq 5 looks very interesting, same with Nio ET5 and Fisker Ocean. Competition is surely coming, but I don't think Tesla needs to worry about the traditional old school traditionals, they're still making electric buggy whips.

I'm glad other carmakers aren't obsessed with performance because the average joe doesn't care how fast a car goes from 0 to 60. You never hear about the acceleration speed on ID.4 forums even with the AWD variant (discussion is about winter/snow handling). Comfort, safety, and quietness are just as critical to the masses. All these Ioniq 5 reviews mention the harsh ride of the Y and Mach-E... Every. Single. One. I found the Mach-E (and Y) at the borderline of harshness. I would not take either on long road trips. Total blast on the city... annoying on the highway. BlueCruise (hands-free self driving on highway) does help the Mach-E immensely but the 80% SoC charging fall off negatives anything overly positive I have to say about road tripping in it.

Ioniq 5 is going to bit a huge success with families. It's cheap too surprisingly. I was expecting prices above the Mach-E but it undercuts them by $5K.

 

[Corndart]

I'm glad other carmakers aren't obsessed with performance because the average joe doesn't care how fast a car goes from 0 to 60. You never hear about the acceleration speed on ID.4 forums even with the AWD variant (discussion is about winter/snow handling). Comfort, safety, and quietness are just as critical to the masses. All these Ioniq 5 reviews mention the harsh ride of the Y and Mach-E... Every. Single. One. I found the Mach-E (and Y) at the borderline of harshness. I would not take either on long road trips. Total blast on the city... annoying on the highway. BlueCruise (hands-free self driving on highway) does help the Mach-E immensely but the 80% SoC charging fall off negatives anything overly positive I have to say about road tripping in it.

Ioniq 5 is going to bit a huge success with families. It's cheap too surprisingly. I was expecting prices above the Mach-E but it undercuts them by $5K.

Can't comment about how harsh long term ownership of the Y is (don't have mine yet...soon) but on the test drives I would concur it was a lot less refined than it ought to be given the cost.

Totally agree re: targeting average joe/jane. It's the CRV / Escape / Accord / Camry family car audience that needs something in the 35-50k price point. Broad availability at this price, with a $7500 EV incentive, along with the charging infra, is where I'd like to see my tax dollars injected into stimulating EV production and adoption.

 

[WhiteWi]

This is a really important comment. Tesla is a really innovative company, which is the secret to its success and the reason it now has the best EV lineup in the world. I don't see it falling into second place for a very long time. However, to keep that innovation going Tesla needs the competition. As an analogy, the Apple iPhone is the most successful smart phone in the world. However, without all those Android phones out there, I doubt the iPhone would be as polished as it is today or that Apple would continue to improve its product year after year. So... all you Tesla fans out there, please cheer for the other EVs coming to market too. The more Rivian and Lucid and Ford and VW and (yes) GM improve their products, the more Tesla will be forced to up its game. And the better that will be for all of us in the future.

And by the way... although I haven't made a decision yet I am still (slightly) leaning Tesla. No doubt, side by side, the technology and drivetrain are superior. I appreciate all the great comments on this thread. These days I'm mostly just killing time waiting for a car to arrive rather than information gathering. The two biggest factors are 1) which car gets here first, and 2) whether the BBB passes since the Ford still gets the legacy credit. Not looking great on 2) as of the Sunday news talk shows morning but I do still have some hope that something will get passed.

BBB is no go.