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Heat battery while braking?

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A thing I have wondered about for a while now is why Tesla has not implemented heating of battery while braking? When temps are low and battery can`t utilize regen the mechanical brakes do the job now. Shouldn`t it be better if Tesla allowed for the engine to generate Power while braking, but send the energy to the battery-heater in S and X (6kW) or create waste-heat for the battery in Model 3? It is already possible to create a lot of Waste heat With the motor in Model 3 when using the SC-ready-feature. Is this something that is hard to enable? If possible it should be a win-win situation since range in Cold weather would be a bit better, brakes would last longer and fast-charging would be faster. Maybe this is impossible, but I would love to get Insight from those who knows this technical stuff better than me :)
 
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You come up with the heating method that can take a large amount of electricity and turn it into a bunch of heat in 2-5seconds in a cost effective manner and I bet Musk will hire you.

Heating elements don't do well with a cycle of a few seconds.

Far as using the motor, to make the heat that fast if they could I think they would.

Stop and think about it for a second Regen can hit what 60kw the S/X heater is 6kw to dump that kind of every into the coolant in a few seconds of Regen you will boil the coolant at the point of heating however it is accomplished.

Every engineering dilema is simple to fix when you don't stop to think about the physics involved.
 
A thing I have wondered about for a while now is why Tesla has not implemented heating of battery while braking? When temps are low and battery can`t utilize regen the mechanical brakes do the job now. Shouldn`t it be better if Tesla allowed for the engine to generate Power while braking, but send the energy to the battery-heater in S and X (6kW) or create waste-heat for the battery in Model 3? It is already possible to create a lot of Waste heat With the motor in Model 3 when using the SC-ready-feature. Is this something that is hard to enable? If possible it should be a win-win situation since range in Cold weather would be a bit better, brakes would last longer and fast-charging would be faster. Maybe this is impossible, but I would love to get Insight from those who knows this technical stuff better than me :)

I believe that this may already be occurring, it's called "limited regen" not "no regen"

I'm pretty sure that when the motors start generating power, they are offsetting the power from the battery. It's not necessarily huge, because the braking isn't often that much.
 
A resistive heating element.
Simple.

Not quite... you're talking about a resisitive heater that has the following design bits:
  • Can take up to ~50-100kW of power instantaneously (that's what regen is)
  • Has a way to funnel all that power back to the coolant without it immediately vaporizing
  • Can handle being cycled between 0kW to 100kW to 0kW instantly over and over.
If you don't have that, then the brake feel will be weird and mushy and you won't be able to do it for long. If there was a way to actually do that in a reasonable manner, they'd have designed something like that for heating the car too. Think of how much less power you'd have to burn if you could just heat the car via braking.
 
You come up with the heating method that can take a large amount of electricity and turn it into a bunch of heat in 2-5seconds in a cost effective manner and I bet Musk will hire you.

Heating elements don't do well with a cycle of a few seconds.

Far as using the motor, to make the heat that fast if they could I think they would.

Stop and think about it for a second Regen can hit what 60kw the S/X heater is 6kw to dump that kind of every into the coolant in a few seconds of Regen you will boil the coolant at the point of heating however it is accomplished.

Every engineering dilema is simple to fix when you don't stop to think about the physics involved.
Of course dumping 60kW into the coolant at once is not a good idea, but atleast where I live I have a lot off hills that would heat the battery for several minutes each time. Driving back my kids from school generates 300W-500W on they way back and 10kW of regen is enough to not touch brakes. When we go to the moutains several times in the winter we often regen 2-3kW going downhill. Letting the coolant get 5-10kW from brakes would not be a problem :)
 
Not quite... you're talking about a resisitive heater that has the following design bits:
  • Can take up to ~50-100kW of power instantaneously (that's what regen is)
  • Has a way to funnel all that power back to the coolant without it immediately vaporizing
  • Can handle being cycled between 0kW to 100kW to 0kW instantly over and over.
If you don't have that, then the brake feel will be weird and mushy and you won't be able to do it for long. If there was a way to actually do that in a reasonable manner, they'd have designed something like that for heating the car too. Think of how much less power you'd have to burn if you could just heat the car via braking.

These are all solvable with resisitive heating . Same principle as seat heaters, but integrate the wire into the battery. It's just added cost.
 
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The 6kw the S/X heater delivers is without accounting for inefficiencies 10% of normal Regen at least my P85 it is 60kw.

Are you going to notice 10% of peak Regen? Maybe it already does something similar when "Regen is limited" and it is just so little you don't see/feel it.
 
These are all solvable with resisitive heating . Same principle as seat heaters, but integrate the wire into the battery. It's just added cost.

No, it's not. Seat heaters (and even the car heating) are much lower amounts of current, by an order of magnitude than what is required to physically brake a car. You're talking about switching the regen typically going to a pack for battery to resistive coils, which means power on the order of 50-100kW. Assuming you could equally distribute it properly, you then need to be able to modulate and switch it. It's a pretty big redesign of the existing inverter, since now you have two paths that have to be switched independently (and probably need to operate simultaneously for most efficiency).

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm sure Tesla has actually investigated this to some extent already. I'm just saying that it's a pretty big redesign and cost adder. A lot simpler than just adding a heating coil to car seats or something.
 
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I think the answer to the original question is that this heating of the battery is already being done when you have limited regen...how aggressively I am not sure (unless you are routing to a nearby Supercharger), but I'm not 100% sure it is being done in the case of a completely frozen battery.

A few questions about this. Let's put aside the possibility of new hardware and just talk about what the car is currently capable of.

Right now, as I understand it, the car has:
1) A way to run the motor with zero torque production (the rear since it can be done on the RWD vehicle) inefficiently to produce heat and heat the battery via the coolant loop. I've heard this is 2kW heat output capability but not sure whether it has been increased. The energy to produce this heating can come from the battery (it will work when going uphill, so runs in such a way as to produce torque but produce it less efficiently than normal). More questions about other energy sources below.
2) A Cabin PTC heater, ~7kW, which runs directly off the (HV?) battery (I assume it runs off of the HV, and not the 12V DC/DC.)
3) Regen capability, which is easily capable of producing 60kW of power by producing a charging voltage (~400V or whatever voltage is produced for the particular SoC when pushing the available current into the battery) for the battery, but it must be limited if the battery is frozen (to prevent damage). 7-9kW to run the various heaters is not going to produce a lot of slowing: At 25mph, 7kW will produce: (P=Fv, F=ma)
g's = 7kW/(25mph)/4200lbs/((9.81m/s^2)/g) = 0.033g (Compare to emergency braking g's with MXM4s of ~0.95g, ~30 times as much)

Is all of the above correct?

Assuming it is, I have a few questions, in the condition of a 100% frozen cold-soaked battery (let's say it is at -10C), which is absolutely not able to accept any charge:

1) With this 100% frozen battery, for the battery heating produced by the motor, does the car have the capability of using regen to produce battery heating? Or must it extract that energy from the battery only via sending current to the motor? I can't think of a way to empirically determine this. We know there is a way for the car to limit the amount of regen power in cool conditions. But can it produce these low levels of "regen" (it wouldn't really be regen in this case because ZERO current can go to the battery since it is frozen) AND operate the motor in this inefficient warming regime? In other words, is there a way for the car to produce low levels of torque resisting rolling and put the resulting energy on the HV bus, but precisely in such a way as to ensure zero current to the battery (and of course zero current from the battery), run all the accessories, produce heat in the motor for warming the battery, etc. Or in this condition does Tesla just simply prevent any regen, and actually send power from the battery to the freewheeling motor in a way to produce zero torque but produce battery heat?

2) Does turning on and off the CABIN heater in this condition affect the amount of regen available on a hill? To some extent this might answer part of question 1...in this "zero-battery-charging-allowed" frozen state, is it possible to extract energy from the hill (via the motor AC-DC converter), at all? Does anyone know? The empirical test would be (with a very cold cabin as well) to turn on and off cabin heat with a completely frozen battery, and see whether the amount of "motor braking" you get changes. It would need to be relatively flat to be perceivable, because the g forces would be quite limited as mentioned above. It might be possible to see the effect on the power bar/regen bar as well, if the surface were perfectly flat and you were moving at a constant speed, as you toggle heat on/off.

If these questions could be answered we'd have a good idea whether Tesla was optimizing the efficiency of the heating systems with current hardware. I would think they are, though maybe they are gradually tweaking/improving as time goes on, too.
 
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No, it's not. Seat heaters (and even the car heating) are much lower amounts of current, by an order of magnitude than what is required to physically brake a car. You're talking about switching the regen typically going to a pack for battery to resistive coils, which means power on the order of 50-100kW. Assuming you could equally distribute it properly, you then need to be able to modulate and switch it. It's a pretty big redesign of the existing inverter, since now you have two paths that have to be switched independently (and probably need to operate simultaneously for most efficiency).

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm sure Tesla has actually investigated this to some extent already. I'm just saying that it's a pretty big redesign and cost adder. A lot simpler than just adding a heating coil to car seats or something.


Copper resistivity: 1.68e-8 OhmMeter
Copper density: 8960 kg/m^3
AWG 10 wire
diameter: 2.588mm
cross area: 5.26mm^2
Onderdonk fusing current for copper wire AWG10 for 1s =1.6kA
P=100kW
U=400V
I=P/U=250A
R_wire = U/I = 1.6Ohm
Length of copper wire with 1.6Ohm impedance for AWG10 = 1.6 / ( 1.68e-8 * 1e6 / 5.26 )= 501m
Weight of 501m long AWG10 copper wire = 5.26e-6*501*8960 = 23.6kg
Price of copper: $3/lbs = $6.6/kg
Price of the copper for the cable above = $156

plus manufacturing and insulation costs


501m of wire can easily distributed evenly along the battery.
No need for modulation or major inverter modifications, just one more output. That's the beauty of a resistive heater.
 
Copper resistivity: 1.68e-8 OhmMeter
Copper density: 8960 kg/m^3
AWG 10 wire
diameter: 2.588mm
cross area: 5.26mm^2
Onderdonk fusing current for copper wire AWG10 for 1s =1.6kA
P=100kW
U=400V
I=P/U=250A
R_wire = U/I = 1.6Ohm
Length of copper wire with 1.6Ohm impedance for AWG10 = 1.6 / ( 1.68e-8 * 1e6 / 5.26 )= 501m
Weight of 501m long AWG10 copper wire = 5.26e-6*501*8960 = 23.6kg
Price of copper: $3/lbs = $6.6/kg
Price of the copper for the cable above = $156

plus manufacturing and insulation costs


501m of wire can easily distributed evenly along the battery.
No need for modulation or major inverter modifications, just one more output. That's the beauty of a resistive heater.

You don't get what I said, do you? I have no doubt you can pick out an appropriate sized wire that won't fuse and can act like a car seat heater but for the entire battery... your idea of using copper wire strung through the battery is a pretty bad idea though. Just because it fuses at 1.6kA doesn't mean you want to actually use that to heat something up... dumping 100kW into the battery using 10ga wire is a horrible idea, because you can't pull the heat away fast enough for it to actually be useful... I don't think you want glowing copper wiring next to your battery. That stuff needs time to absorb and redistribute the heat, hence why coolant loops were discussed.

BUT, assuming you have a coil that works, in order to actually use braking force to be a resistive heater, you need to have a separate output that is modulated exactly the same way the regen charges the battery. No one wants to just suddenly add 100kW of 'drag' onto the motor to run the resistive heater. For best usage it should essentially be set so regen and resisitive heating are combined to the total (i.e. if it pulls 75kW in full regen, if it's at only 25kW regen cause of cold it would pull 50kW of resistive heating). That requires the inverter modifications that I mention.

If you set it up like a regular seat heater, then you now are wasting tons of power and your efficiency is in the gutter. There's no free lunch here.
 
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I have no doubt you can pick out an appropriate sized wire that won't fuse and can act like a car seat heater but for the entire battery... your idea of using copper wire strung through the battery is a pretty bad idea though. Just because it fuses at 1.6kA doesn't mean you want to actually use that to heat something up... dumping 100kW into the battery using 10ga wire is a horrible idea, because you can't pull the heat away fast enough for it to actually be useful... I don't think you want glowing copper wiring next to your battery. That stuff needs time to absorb and redistribute the heat, hence why coolant loops were discussed.

I won't suggest using a cylindrical wire. Cross section would be most likely rectangular.

Heat capacity of copper: 38.5J/degC per 100g
1J = 0.000277778 Wh
23.6kg / 100g * 38.5J / degC * 0.000277778 Wh/J = 2.524 Wh/degC
P=100kW
Temperature change of the copper wire in 1 second = 100kW / 2.524 Wh/degC /3600 = 11 deg C / second
In 5 seconds and braking by 100kW the wire's temperature changes by 55 deg C. Then this heat has couple of minutes to flow into the cells until the next braking.

This looks totally doable to me. However it adds weight and cost. These can be reduced by using different material. And most likely the electric heater is cheaper but slower.

BUT, assuming you have a coil that works, in order to actually use braking force to be a resistive heater, you need to have a separate output that is modulated exactly the same way the regen charges the battery. No one wants to just suddenly add 100kW of 'drag' onto the motor to run the resistive heater. For best usage it should essentially be set so regen and resisitive heating are combined to the total (i.e. if it pulls 75kW in full regen, if it's at only 25kW regen cause of cold it would pull 50kW of resistive heating). That requires the inverter modifications that I mention.

pretty simple modification

If you set it up like a regular seat heater, then you now are wasting tons of power and your efficiency is in the gutter. There's no free lunch here.

I'm braking and battery is cold so I can't store the energy elsewhere. Not sure what efficiency are you referring to? Anything that went into the wire is warming the battery.
It adds weight though. Just by looking at the numbers, sizing the system to 50kW the weight could come down. Adding a heater like in Model S adds weight as well.
 
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Not quite... you're talking about a resisitive heater that has the following design bits:
  • Can take up to ~50-100kW of power instantaneously (that's what regen is)
  • Has a way to funnel all that power back to the coolant without it immediately vaporizing
  • Can handle being cycled between 0kW to 100kW to 0kW instantly over and over.
If you don't have that, then the brake feel will be weird and mushy and you won't be able to do it for long. If there was a way to actually do that in a reasonable manner, they'd have designed something like that for heating the car too. Think of how much less power you'd have to burn if you could just heat the car via braking.
Easily solved, just add a battery to smooth out the power...:D
 
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