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Get Amped Tour: Seattle, 7/6 - 7/8
- Thread starter Francis Lau
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If you watch the video that Francis posted (of me driving), I heard exactly the same thing in the very same situation on Aurora the second time. It sounded more like a warning tone, although the Tesla co-pilot said she thought she heard the tires. To me, it was clear as day - and you'll hear me say the traction control kicked in. Perhaps some tuning will help, but I did feel the wheels break loose before I felt the car shut it down.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Hi Vegi. Seems we came to some similar conclusions, from similar backgrounds, driving the same car today and posting at the forum at the same time.
Yes, I also felt the traction control kick in punching it on a 90 degree right turn. I chalked it up to lots of torque being put down into two wheels. At the track, the BMW M3 drivers always complain about the same thing with their traction control kicking in coming out of tight corners. With AWD on my S4 plus traction control/rear sports diff set to Dynamic the only time I ever feel it kick in is if I get WAY out of true, starting to induce a spin.
Ditto on the steering feel. Such is the nature of drive-by-wire electronic steering I guess. Either that or it's a decision based on the a target market (touring car). Sure felt planted though, didn't it? If that's where they're aiming, and my impression coming away from today is it is, then they really nailed it.
I don't think it's fair to expect a large sedan to compare with a small sports roadster like the Boxster. Why don't you replace the Prius with a Model S, and keep the Boxster for spirited weekend drives and the track?
I felt the wheels break loose on my drive as well. For all the complaints about not having room to go 100, the turns on the Aurora route gave plenty of options for evaluating cornering -- at least to the degree I wanted to feel it in their vehicle.
Re automatics vs. manual: automatics cannot "drive" the motor with the wheels, which is why you can't push/roll-start one. So there isn't any direct motor braking.
And to all those who talk about breaks and breaking -- please stop. It's very confused/confusing. Braking, pls, with the brakes. No breaking with the breaks!
As for the regen with ABS, there's only a certain amount of "pull" the contact patch of the tires can apply to the road before slipping/locking. If you're on max regen and then hit the brakes, you get front tire drag added to the rear wheel drag. If that's needed in an emergency, fine. But for energy recovery, it's a straight deduction from what the rear wheels are contributing.
This will be different in the X-Perf (dual motor AWD) of course. In that system, the only value of emergency braking is to produce a deliberate skid, as the regen will already be applying all the static friction stress the tires' contact patches can handle. Non-emergency braking will, as above, simply be directing energy away from recovery onto heating and abrading the brake pads.
And to all those who talk about breaks and breaking -- please stop. It's very confused/confusing. Braking, pls, with the brakes. No breaking with the breaks!
As for the regen with ABS, there's only a certain amount of "pull" the contact patch of the tires can apply to the road before slipping/locking. If you're on max regen and then hit the brakes, you get front tire drag added to the rear wheel drag. If that's needed in an emergency, fine. But for energy recovery, it's a straight deduction from what the rear wheels are contributing.
This will be different in the X-Perf (dual motor AWD) of course. In that system, the only value of emergency braking is to produce a deliberate skid, as the regen will already be applying all the static friction stress the tires' contact patches can handle. Non-emergency braking will, as above, simply be directing energy away from recovery onto heating and abrading the brake pads.
No, it's not. Only the simple-minded could possibly find it confusing. Get over it.
If you want to "help" or "correct" people when it matters, go for it. Harping on it when it doesn't matter just makes you smaller and wastes everyone's bandwidth -- internet and human.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
This assumes the regen system can exert enough motor drag to reach the friction threshold of the contact patches. Given that there is a limit to the amount of energy the motor can dump back into the batteries when operating as a generator in regen mode, I thought it was significantly less than that.
AndyM
Member
First, to EarlyAdopter and Vegi - great reviews! It looks like you're comparing the Model S to sporty ICE roadsters... I'd suggest asking the local store for a Tesla Roadster Sport test drive, if they're still doing those. Or asking a forum member for a spin. Or, rent one in markets that have one or two (there's one in downtown Portland here). You will be more pleased in the handling and track feel. Still, the reviews you gave came pretty close, which make ME feel wonderful about getting my Model S to replace my grocery-getter. Thank you!!
I am pretty sure the steering is true rack-and-pinion, with an electric motor power assist. It's not steering by wire, like an modern aircraft. Yet.
I am pretty sure the steering is true rack-and-pinion, with an electric motor power assist. It's not steering by wire, like an modern aircraft. Yet.
My steering was set to sport. The Tesla co-pilot briefly switched it between sport, normal and comfort but I personally would not use anything but sport and had her change it ri.
From my experience a big part of the steering feel comes from the stiffness of the suspension. Now, I have no idea how the Tesla air suspension varies from the Porsche air suspension but in the Porsche suspension the main purpose is to adjust the stiffness of the suspension and not the ride height (which is what Tesla always demos). I can make the suspension in my Boxster S go from very comfortable and compliant to teeth rattling with the push of a button. The Porsche air suspension also dynamically stiffens when cornering. When the suspension is stiffer you get a much more direct feeling while steering. I would not want my suspension to always be stiff but it is great to have it available at the push of a button when you come up to a section of curvy roads or a sweeping on ramp. However, it could be completely different tech in the Tesla as I have not seen any mention of the air suspension being able to adjust the stiffness.
The steering feel was not nearly as big of a concern as the aggressiveness of the stability/traction control. It is great to know that you can turn off the stability/traction control but I hope that it is not completely turned off. With most cars, even "off" is not really "off". I'm not that much of a purest and I want to know that it will save my butt if I push it too far. That is kind of the point of the sport modes, so it is too bad they do not have one. Again, the default is just too agressive for the "Performance" model.
And before anyone mentions otherwise, I have no expectations that the Model S will handle as well as a two seater sports car. I just want it to be the best handling Performance Sedan.
Vegi
Model S P#293
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Well, any time you accelerate through a sharp corner like that you are going to be putting the laws of physics to the test. Typically, that is not something you want to do but you have no choice at that corner. I lived in the area and made that turn on to Aurora a number of times and it was never a pleasant experience.
I was expecting the Model S Performance to handle it better. Don't get me wrong, once we rounded the corner and pointed straight it took off like crazy. It was just much slower than I expected going around the corner due to the traction and stability control. I definitely did not feel the wheels lose traction but it seems you and others have... It really makes me want to go for another test drive...
Vegi
Model S P#293
The test drive went great today! They offered two track options, one for 99 and one for I-5. It being Sunday morning and less traffic, I opted for 99 even though some folks were unsatisfied with that option on previous days. I found the loop to offer a variety of driving conditions that were helpful in assessing what the car could do. I slowed way down on 99 and gunned it several times, absolutely thrilling, you just didn’t want to stop. The handling is effortless, the suspension is solid but not harshly tight and bumpy like some performance vehicles. About all you hear is the tires on the road, it’s very nice and quiet. I was actually a little intimidated that the accelerator peddle would be too responsive. I quickly became very comfortable with the drive, it’s smooth and powerful, but agile, nuanced and articulate. The car looks every bit as amazing in person as it does in the pictures, actually probably more so. Practically every color has it’s appeal. The blue was almost black until you got up to it then it popped through, really nice effect! Our favorite was the Dolphin Gray, gave the car a nice chunky metallic look.
We were there to compare and contrast some of the options. For us the pano roof turned out to be key, we are both tall and appreciate the extra little bit of headroom in the back (we don’t like to ask our friends to get in the back of a car we aren’t comfortable getting in). The lack of rear seat headroom in the back is really one of the only draw backs, though I think it’s relatively minor given that its going to be our kids back there for many years to come. We also compared wheels. The grey performance wheels looked better in person than in photos, but we concluded we will go with the 19” for longer lasting tires.
We also came to the test drive wanting to better understand the benefits of the tech package. Frankly I’d rather have an LED option than a Xenon, LED is in and efficient is sexy in my book. The only thing in the tech package that appealed to me was the on board nav. It took a little bit of asking to understand that this nav gives you the ability to treck beyond cell service and still have a map being read from the hard drive. This was appealing but overall, the tech package wasn't appealing enough to justify the expense.
I also came to the test drive with iPod and USB cable in hand ready to test out the sound studio package. I was disappointed to be told that we could not plug in, as the soft ware was not there to drive the iPod. The stereo sounded like it was playing through the internet or XM, kind of flat and unexciting. I really didn’t get a feel for weather I needed to spring for the sound package. While we are waiting and contemplating our reservation we will be visiting various stores to see if we can get a better feel for the standard vs upgraded sound system before we have to make a final choice.
The active air suspension was very nice! We didn’t have the standard to compare with, but it was noticeably luxurious. The brake regen in standard mode was more noticeable than the Leaf’s in eco mode, though as I understand engaging the brakes doesn’t increase regen as it does in the Leaf… it feels more like it’s there any time you lift your foot off the accelerator. The rear facing seats really do look great and it’s good to know that the car is designed for a 50 mph rear end collision without crumpling in the jump seat area… I was told most cars are only designed to handle a 40 mph impact. This helped me feel more relaxed about the idea of putting my kids in the jump seats.
Overall, we were blown away, it’s just such a great car, irrespective of it being electric. The EV drive experience is just truly exceptional. We are very much looking forward to going gasless in such style!!
We were there to compare and contrast some of the options. For us the pano roof turned out to be key, we are both tall and appreciate the extra little bit of headroom in the back (we don’t like to ask our friends to get in the back of a car we aren’t comfortable getting in). The lack of rear seat headroom in the back is really one of the only draw backs, though I think it’s relatively minor given that its going to be our kids back there for many years to come. We also compared wheels. The grey performance wheels looked better in person than in photos, but we concluded we will go with the 19” for longer lasting tires.
We also came to the test drive wanting to better understand the benefits of the tech package. Frankly I’d rather have an LED option than a Xenon, LED is in and efficient is sexy in my book. The only thing in the tech package that appealed to me was the on board nav. It took a little bit of asking to understand that this nav gives you the ability to treck beyond cell service and still have a map being read from the hard drive. This was appealing but overall, the tech package wasn't appealing enough to justify the expense.
I also came to the test drive with iPod and USB cable in hand ready to test out the sound studio package. I was disappointed to be told that we could not plug in, as the soft ware was not there to drive the iPod. The stereo sounded like it was playing through the internet or XM, kind of flat and unexciting. I really didn’t get a feel for weather I needed to spring for the sound package. While we are waiting and contemplating our reservation we will be visiting various stores to see if we can get a better feel for the standard vs upgraded sound system before we have to make a final choice.
The active air suspension was very nice! We didn’t have the standard to compare with, but it was noticeably luxurious. The brake regen in standard mode was more noticeable than the Leaf’s in eco mode, though as I understand engaging the brakes doesn’t increase regen as it does in the Leaf… it feels more like it’s there any time you lift your foot off the accelerator. The rear facing seats really do look great and it’s good to know that the car is designed for a 50 mph rear end collision without crumpling in the jump seat area… I was told most cars are only designed to handle a 40 mph impact. This helped me feel more relaxed about the idea of putting my kids in the jump seats.
Overall, we were blown away, it’s just such a great car, irrespective of it being electric. The EV drive experience is just truly exceptional. We are very much looking forward to going gasless in such style!!
Vegi, for what it's worth, I've ridden in the back of a Model S that took a fairly sharp right-hand turn sort of like what you describe, although probably not a 90. I could hear the tires chirping, although I was somewhat distracted by my eyeballs rattling around at the back of my skull. ;-)
So, I wonder what the deal is with that particular turn you took, and why it seemed so pokey.
So, I wonder what the deal is with that particular turn you took, and why it seemed so pokey.
Here's the video Francis posted earlier in the thread. Start at 7:35, this is where I'm making the right-hand turn. I started to make the turn and then stepped it to the floor. Somewhere around 20-25 I heard that muted tone - I'm guessing that same "whine" you heard. So I don't think it was breaking loose in the turn, but rather when I really romped on it. I could feel I broke them loose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyhjJcQhG8
Cued at that spot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyhjJcQhG8&t=455
Only chirp I hear is the turn signal.
I had my test drive at Saturday during the 10 am slot (I think it was probably 10:45 by the time I was behind the wheel).
Overall, it was fun, and reconfirmed my opinion that this is an awesome car. It felt like the time was too short to really collect my thoughts as I was driving and try to pay attention to everything. And, of course, I mostly wanted to concentrate on the drive and how it felt, rather than pick at the things that I could see just as well at the store (like where the cupholder is, etc). I drove the non-performance black car, which is what I wanted, because that's what I'll be ordering. At least, they told me it was non-performance. It had performance wheels on it.
While I still think that the Fremont and LA course looked better, the Seattle course wasn't as boring as I feared. Part of it was luck. When I pulled out onto Aurora, there was no traffic near me, either in front or behind. The co-pilot told me that I could punch it. Before that point I had tried going from 0-30 in short order, and so I already knew how fast the car could accelerate. The speed limit on Aurora is 40 mph. I intended to get up to 50 and then cruise at 45. Well, I (far too easily) shot past 50 and hit 70, before letting off of the accelerator, and I think I saw the gauge read 74 mph before the car started slowing down. It was an awesome feeling, but a bit scary how easy it is to get going fast, lol. It didn't really feel that fast, as it was so effortless. I really didn't intend to go that fast, but that didn't concern me. I'll eventually get used to how it feels to drive the car, and of course, when I'm driving it daily, I'm not going to be mashing my foot on the floor just to see what it does.
The regen at low speeds (~30 mph) felt much stronger than what I expected, and though my co-pilot said that I'd be used to it by the end of the drive, I wasn't. I don't think it's bad thing or a good thing. It's just different, something I'll have to learn to finesse properly. If there is a setting to enable regen only on braking, I would definitely like to try it, but either way, it's no deal killer. It's just something I'll need to learn. The regen did not feel so pronounced when slowing from higher speeds.
As for the slot-car-on-rails feeling or ultra-smooth handling over rough road, to be honest I didn't notice anything spectacular. That's not to say that it was bad. I liked how the car handled very much, and one thing I was very happy about was that apart from the incredible, smooth acceleration and strong regen, it felt familiar and comfortable. Even though the car is a little bigger and 1,000 lb heavier than my current car, it didn't feel that different to drive it. So I liked it very much. As for why I didn't feel or notice a night-and-day improvement, part of it probably has to do with the fact that I'm just not that in tune to those aspects of driving in the first place, and maybe the effects have been overhyped a little. Also, I think maybe the cars I've driven already have pretty good, smooth handling, so maybe I'm just used to it. Perhaps I would notice the difference if I drove the same course with the Model S and my car right afterwards (wish I had thought of that yesterday).
After driving, I realized that I never really tried out the brakes, except to complete a stop after regen had done most of the work, and I also wish I had tried the cruise control, but I didn't think of it at the time. I use cruise control quite a bit, and I'm not sure that I'll like controlling it with the stalk. Like we've seen others do in multiple YouTube videos, I fumbled a few times when I wanted to activate the blinker.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the electronically adjustable steering wheel. Though it's certainly not a unique feature, it's cool and appreciated all the same. Also, I took some video of the blinkers, mainly because I haven't seen a clear video that just focuses on what they look like. I might upload it later if anybody cares.
I'm glad I got to see the Dolphin Gray in person, but sad that we didn't get to see brown. So I'm still no closer to being able to decide what color to get (not like I need to makea decision soon anways). Gray looked awesome in the sunlight. In the shade, it still made for a nice looking car, though a little more plain looking.
Overall, it was fun, and reconfirmed my opinion that this is an awesome car. It felt like the time was too short to really collect my thoughts as I was driving and try to pay attention to everything. And, of course, I mostly wanted to concentrate on the drive and how it felt, rather than pick at the things that I could see just as well at the store (like where the cupholder is, etc). I drove the non-performance black car, which is what I wanted, because that's what I'll be ordering. At least, they told me it was non-performance. It had performance wheels on it.
While I still think that the Fremont and LA course looked better, the Seattle course wasn't as boring as I feared. Part of it was luck. When I pulled out onto Aurora, there was no traffic near me, either in front or behind. The co-pilot told me that I could punch it. Before that point I had tried going from 0-30 in short order, and so I already knew how fast the car could accelerate. The speed limit on Aurora is 40 mph. I intended to get up to 50 and then cruise at 45. Well, I (far too easily) shot past 50 and hit 70, before letting off of the accelerator, and I think I saw the gauge read 74 mph before the car started slowing down. It was an awesome feeling, but a bit scary how easy it is to get going fast, lol. It didn't really feel that fast, as it was so effortless. I really didn't intend to go that fast, but that didn't concern me. I'll eventually get used to how it feels to drive the car, and of course, when I'm driving it daily, I'm not going to be mashing my foot on the floor just to see what it does.
The regen at low speeds (~30 mph) felt much stronger than what I expected, and though my co-pilot said that I'd be used to it by the end of the drive, I wasn't. I don't think it's bad thing or a good thing. It's just different, something I'll have to learn to finesse properly. If there is a setting to enable regen only on braking, I would definitely like to try it, but either way, it's no deal killer. It's just something I'll need to learn. The regen did not feel so pronounced when slowing from higher speeds.
As for the slot-car-on-rails feeling or ultra-smooth handling over rough road, to be honest I didn't notice anything spectacular. That's not to say that it was bad. I liked how the car handled very much, and one thing I was very happy about was that apart from the incredible, smooth acceleration and strong regen, it felt familiar and comfortable. Even though the car is a little bigger and 1,000 lb heavier than my current car, it didn't feel that different to drive it. So I liked it very much. As for why I didn't feel or notice a night-and-day improvement, part of it probably has to do with the fact that I'm just not that in tune to those aspects of driving in the first place, and maybe the effects have been overhyped a little. Also, I think maybe the cars I've driven already have pretty good, smooth handling, so maybe I'm just used to it. Perhaps I would notice the difference if I drove the same course with the Model S and my car right afterwards (wish I had thought of that yesterday).
After driving, I realized that I never really tried out the brakes, except to complete a stop after regen had done most of the work, and I also wish I had tried the cruise control, but I didn't think of it at the time. I use cruise control quite a bit, and I'm not sure that I'll like controlling it with the stalk. Like we've seen others do in multiple YouTube videos, I fumbled a few times when I wanted to activate the blinker.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the electronically adjustable steering wheel. Though it's certainly not a unique feature, it's cool and appreciated all the same. Also, I took some video of the blinkers, mainly because I haven't seen a clear video that just focuses on what they look like. I might upload it later if anybody cares.
I'm glad I got to see the Dolphin Gray in person, but sad that we didn't get to see brown. So I'm still no closer to being able to decide what color to get (not like I need to makea decision soon anways). Gray looked awesome in the sunlight. In the shade, it still made for a nice looking car, though a little more plain looking.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Ah, thanks for the correction. So, is there something about electric assist versus hydraulic assist that results in less road feedback being transmitted to the steering wheel?
Actually, I was comparing to another sports sedan, the Audi S4. Admittedly a smaller vehicle class, but by no means a roadster. My hope was the Model S would compare, but after today I don't think the comparison is warranted, or even wanted. The S4 is more nimble, sure, and more sporty, but not as comfortable, can only carry 4 adults + 0 extra children, and not as planted feeling (never mind the efficiency difference!). The Model S is instead aimed squarely in the next vehicle class up - the Audi A7, BMW 5 GT, or Porsche Panamera - and direct comparisons are best done here, in my opinion. Alas, I don't have experience with any of these as I've always stuck with smaller sports sedans.
Big decision for me is if I'm ready and willing to move up to a bigger class of car, with all of the pros and cons (many of which Telsa has surmounted) that come with that move.
Yes, that's the sound. In videos it sounds like it is the electric motor but it is not. It is a whine or tone coming from behind the center of the dash which must be there to let you know that the traction control kicked in.
I was probably more agressive going into the corner as there was more traffic on mid-day Sunday than what you had... I think I just got caught by the traction control and it wouldn't let go which caused the whole turn to be slow. It probably didn't help that I was gunning it even more to get the car moving...
I have nothing against traction control. It is good technology and saves lives. I just feel that there should be a sport option with less of it. Traction control can really get in the way when you are trying to drive aggressively.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Maybe as a driver you also hear some sound that's not easy to make out on the video... or a sound reflection on the dash. However, what you hear from 25 mph to about 36 mph, with increasing pitch, sounds exactly like the electric motor (which you don't hear very often).
That's about from the 7:42 to the beginning of the 7:43 mark, just a second or so. At that point (25 mph), the car is already going straight, and the sound increases in pitch, on the straight, as I'd expect only the motor does. One can see some unevenness on the pavement, in the inner curve, when coming downhill, maybe your feeling (and/or traction control) had to do with that (that the car was also going over small bumps at the same time, somewhat swallowed by air suspension for those inside the car, but not for the wheels). And actually, I think one can see the dash going up in the curve, for a moment (at 7:39 or 7:40).
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The electric motor whine was there the whole time, but I did hear a distinctly different tone and it came from a different area - in my case, it sounded like it came from behind the 17" pad or under the console, at least according to my ears. I admit the video didn't capture it very clear but you can hear something in there -- if you've heard it before you can probably isolate it better.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I heard that same high pitch tone in the MSP I drove every time I punched it straightline, too. I did several "regen down to 30 mph, punch it up to 60 mph" runs along the highway and heard that sound each time at max motor exertion, so I didn't think it was related to the traction control. Seemed more related to inverter/current delivery.
Then again, I suppose it's possible the car started detecting slip during hard straightline acceleration as well. That's a lot of torque to put down in two wheels. Some lightweight big block cars like the Corvette Z06 have no problem breaking traction in a straight line at speed after a downshift. I'd be impressed to learn the Model S at 4600 lbs can break traction under acceleration at 30mph!
Then again, I suppose it's possible the car started detecting slip during hard straightline acceleration as well. That's a lot of torque to put down in two wheels. Some lightweight big block cars like the Corvette Z06 have no problem breaking traction in a straight line at speed after a downshift. I'd be impressed to learn the Model S at 4600 lbs can break traction under acceleration at 30mph!
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