Full self driving capability

[Fernand]

There are some people who drive better and faster, and AI assist is of no use to them. Great. They are best off with a Model P. I'm not one of them, and neither are most people.

But there seems to be a type of person who proclaims they don't want, and hate, automation unless it takes them from departure point A to point B with their eyes closed. And Musk is not delivering and yadda di, yadda da. That's not what any autopilot is for. It's the same in aircraft or boats. Or cameras. You use automation where it's appropriate, and you don't play games to sneer about how it can't handle everything.

As the FSD evolves, with free OTA updates, there have demonstrably been fewer and fewer of these can't handle situations. And as you (gradually) learn when and how best to use the automation, it becomes second nature. I drive in California, mostly on freeways, long range and dual motors aren't critical; NOA is essential. What capabilities come next is a bonus.

Unless I'm crazy late to a meeting, I let Nicki drive most of the way, some sections in manual, keep my eyes on the road and happily lean back in my seat. No complaints. I don't enjoy driving old cruise control cars any more, and would never get a Tesla with just basic AP, only to pony up the cash later.
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[Peteski]

I don’t post much these days, but interesting to see how the FSD “value” debate keeps on going.

When I ordered my MX in mid 2017 FSD (as in literal full self driving capability) was apparently just around the corner. Being sceptical I ordered it with EAP which itself was still very much a work in progress, but not too expensive to give it a shot.

Three years later I would say that EAP has gone from being shockingly dangerous (anyone remember the sudden swerve into a side junction “feature” that was thankfully resolved in later updates?) to pretty useful today, although still has its quirks. I use it a lot and would really miss it if it wasn’t there.

As for FSD I would never pay the current price for what it actually gives you over and above the base package.

But the dream lives on.....

 

[MXLRplus]

There are some people who drive better and faster, and AI assist is of no use to them. Great. They are best off with a Model P. I'm not one of them, and neither are most people.

But there seems to be a type of person who proclaims they don't want, and hate, automation unless it takes them from departure point A to point B with their eyes closed. And Musk is not delivering and yadda di, yadda da. That's not what any autopilot is for. It's the same in aircraft or boats. Or cameras. You use automation where it's appropriate, and you don't play games to sneer about how it can't handle everything.

As the FSD evolves, with free OTA updates, there have demonstrably been fewer and fewer of these can't handle situations. And as you (gradually) learn when and how best to use the automation, it becomes second nature. I drive in California, mostly on freeways, long range and dual motors aren't critical; NOA is essential. What capabilities come next is a bonus.

Unless I'm crazy late to a meeting, I let Nicki drive most of the way, some sections in manual, keep my eyes on the road and happily lean back in my seat. No complaints. I don't enjoy driving old cruise control cars any more, and would never get a Tesla with just basic AP, only to pony up the cash later.
.

When you are late that's the best time to use advanced driver's aids like AP. I can't emphasis this enough. Drivers in a hurry who are exceeding their skill level are how people get maimed or die. AP will let you relax in these situation and improve your safety. A stressed out driver is almost as dangerous as an inattentive driver.

 

[logan]

FSD is still vaporware.

 

[notAnExpert]

I'm trying to decide whether to order the Full Self-Driving option. Is it worth the $7,000?

As a current owner of FSD+HW3.0 equipped Model 3, I find the current FSD features to be mostly unreliable or party tricks. If I were to do it again, I'd not rush to buy FSD due to possible price increases in future. I'd save my money until the day the actually available features are complete and stable enough to warrant whatever the price of FSD is at that time.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

If that "sometimes" 100 mile trip is 100 miles 1 way, then you definitely would benefit from the longer range. As indicated, the charging range of an EV for "optimal" battery health is something like 90% to 20%. EPA range is driving like 55 MPH, which unless you spend most of your driving in traffic, your not driving that speed in california. Since you mention you are retired, it likely means that you can go places "when you want to" so likely avoid traffic when you can.

Driving at 70-75, with heat on in the winter ( you will likely still use heat in winter, and in a model 3 it directly effects range), and the standard "battery degradation" of around 5% that will occur in the first year mean your "effective" range is in the 150 range. You can charge to 100% for trips, but you wont want to charge to 100% all the time.

While my own model 3 is the performance model , and I have the full self driving option on my car (and think its "worth it"), If the choice was between the standard autopilot the car comes with and spending the money for more engine, or buying FSD, I would pick the engine 100 times out of 100. Full disclosure though, I like cars with some speed to them.

I think the "engine" (battery) is worth the money before FSD. I think both are worth it, but if I had budget to only choose 1 thats the one I would choose.

I also find it interesting that tesla is telling you they can hold your order until next year. They likely are putting you on a do not deliver list or something, but will this really protect you from price changes for that long? I dont know tesla's policies on such a thing, but most places would not let you hold a price for 7 months.

In any case, welcome to TMC. This place is generally friendly, but there are a few hot button items that get people riled up (just like any place people gather all the time to discuss things). One of them here is "Is full self driving worth it?"

Another is " why does my car only show 210 miles when I purchased 240 miles range??? its only 8 months old????"

Still another is " I only drove 8 miles, why does my car show that it lost 22 miles range?????"

All variations on the same thing of "lost" range. Everything in the car uses "range", and some more than others. Turning on the sentry mode takes 1-2 miles of range an hour, for example.

With this car, one can purchase the full self driving add on at any time, but you cant change the battery (range), just like in a regular car, you can typically change / add options, but a 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder choice is not generally changed after purchase, at least not until someone is doing motor swaps on old cars.

Good luck with your decision(s).

Thanks. I've been driving plug-in hybrids for almost five years, so I know a little about the issues you mentioned, and especially about how the cold affects range. You, and others, have given me quite a bit to chew on.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

Y. O. L. O.



Totaly agree! Would someone buy an Audi 2WD instead of an Audi Quatro AWD?

If you get a Tesla Model 3, get the AWD and get the LR battery.

Also, a Tesla without FSD is a no-no.

The additional cost from SR+ to LR AWD is worthwhile:
- you will get back the price difference if you sell your car, or
- if you keep your car for a long time, you will get less concerned about the annual battery degradation.

Also why not considering getting a Model Y for additional practicality?

I can't afford both AWD/LR and FSD. And the Model Y offers nothing that I want nor need, so why pay more for it?

 

[Michelle_eriw]

Hi Michelle, congrats on your decision to purchase a Tesla! I think you will really enjoy it. Regarding FSD vs Autopilot, a few things to consider:
-Ownership: If you are planning on keeping your car for a long time, FSD is definitely worth it, especially as Tesla keeps raising the price.
-Technology: Since you are a techie, there are multiple features that aren't available in regular autopilot (granted they might not be perfect yet)
-Value retention: My friend and I recently did a trade in quote together with Tesla for our Model 3s (both same Trim, color, bought a week apart, have about 1,200 miles difference). His only has Enhanced Autopilot and mine has FSD. Mine came out $4K higher than his. I called Tesla and they said FSD was considered for this evaluation. Again, this is just based on a single case.

Lastly, I recently did a detailed demo of each features you get with all 3 autopilot packages in my channel. I am also attaching a FSD guide with cost and every single features listed.

Thanks. Very helpful.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

Hi, Michelle,
This is the first time I have posted here. I am retired and bought my M3 SR last September with FSD. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, so do very little multi-lane highway driving. The largest highway in Atlantic Canada is 4 lane. There is only one Supercharger in Nova Scotia so far. So, if I had it to do over again, I would probably trade the FSD for LR although I really think that, if you can afford it at all, it is not an “either/or” but a “both/and”. I love using AP and find that even on 2 lane rural roads it is useful, and becoming more so all the time. The car seems to learn everyday (or maybe it is that I am learning and trusting it more) about the strange turns and twists along our coastal roads!
I found the discussion on range to be very interesting and in accord with my experience. Cold really does cut down on range; not being very techie, I don’t have figures and percentages at my fingertips, but one early winter day I drove to Halifax about 100 km (65 miles) from my home and to my dismay, the NAV told me I did not have enough range to get home. I tried to charge up at a “destination charger” in the city only to discover it would take almost 24 hours to charge at its rate. So I ended up driving to 20 kilometres in the opposite direction from home to charge up at the only supercharger in Nova Scotia! Not a great experience! On the other hand, I did the same trip last week on a 99% charge and had 34% left when I got back home.
I could go on a lot longer about my experiences with my Tesla, but the most important thing to me is the most basic: it is such a fun car to drive; whether under my control or with Autopilot, it is one of the secret pleasures of my day. It makes the trip to get groceries (one of the few places I have been recently, due to Covid) exciting!! And I am looking forward to longer road trips once the provinces bring down their barriers.

Anne C
Nova Scotia
Canada

Hi Anne. Thanks for your feedback. I know of what you speak about cold cutting down on range. My curren plug-in hybrid has an EPA range of 25 miles on battery. The best I've got from it was 28 miles, but in cold weather, all I can get is 17-18.

 

[CyberGus]

FSD is going to be severely hampered in fog and heavy snow just like a human. Telsas rely heavily on optical sensors to drive just like a human. My guess is that it's going to tell you to do the driving.

Fun fact: digital cameras are sensitive to infrared light. Point your camera phone at a TV remote, you should be able to see the emitter blinking. Most digital cameras have an internal infrared filter to correct for this. The Sony 828 had a "NightShot" feature that was damn close to having night vision goggles, because it would remove the IR filter and soak up all that extra light.

The point is that digital cameras can potentially see much better than human vision. Infrared in particular can cut through obstructions such as dust and fog. So there is reason to believe that AP or FSD could continue to operate in challenging conditions, beyond even human capability, although there will always be limits of course.

 

[StellarRat]

Fun fact: digital cameras are sensitive to infrared light. Point your camera phone at a TV remote, you should be able to see the emitter blinking. Most digital cameras have an internal infrared filter to correct for this. The Sony 828 had a "NightShot" feature that was damn close to having night vision goggles, because it would remove the IR filter and soak up all that extra light.

The point is that digital cameras can potentially see much better than human vision. Infrared in particular can cut through obstructions such as dust and fog. So there is reason to believe that AP or FSD could continue to operate in challenging conditions, beyond even human capability, although there will always be limits of course.

Sure, but I've already had my EAP tell me to take over during severe rain. Also, I've gotten notifications when the sun blinded one of the cameras. Obviously, even it's abilities can hampered by the conditions.

 

[hlin07]

Every time a FSD discussion comes on, it's bound to stir up debates from both sides.

I'm in the camp that I'd rather PAY MORE in the future knowing FOR SURE the capability is there before I jump.

Based on how Tesla stock has performed in the past, that 7k invested will likely to worth more than the new FSD cost then.

Also don't forget about depreciation, 7k paid now in 5 years will be worth roughly half that. Say you get SR+ which is 38k, plus 1.2k in destination, 7k in FSD, the car is 46.2k before tax. After 5 years, the car will likely be worth around 23.1k due to depreciation. I understand people say that if keeping car for the long run will be worth it. Let me propose this, why not buy the car for 38k +1.2k=39.2k without FSD. In 5 years or whatever timeframe FSD becomes fully implemented (using 5 years for 50% depreciation as example). Sell your car at 50% depreciation which is roughly 19.6k, then buy another equivalent SR+ with FSD which at this point is 23.1k. Of course actual number will be different (trade in vs private sale, dealership/Tesla vs private purchase), people may feel better driving their own car.

Bottom line, it's a personal call. Buy 7k FSD ONLY on the assumption that future upgrades will be worthless, or that 7k with features currently available. That way, anything on top will be icing on the cake. Because the other way around, if you expect certain things from FSD and it doesn't deliver, you'll likely regret this decision.

 

[Imwinniesdad]

FSD is going to be severely hampered in fog and heavy snow just like a human. Telsas rely heavily on optical sensors to drive just like a human. My guess is that it's going to tell you to do the driving.

No. It sees better than I.

 

[Phlier]

Welcome, @Michelle_eriw , this place is full of friendly, knowledgeable people, and also guys like me.

If that "sometimes" 100 mile trip is 100 miles 1 way, then you definitely would benefit from the longer range.

The important part is in bold.

We have a Performance Model 3 without the Performance trim, and I must admit I wouldn't mind having a bit more range.

I think a common theme among new Tesla owners is that they plan on buying their Tesla just as their short daily commuter driver, with plans of driving it very little between nightly charging sessions.

But then after they take delivery of the vehicle, it rapidly becomes their primary car and they even find themselves wanting to do road trips that they never would've even considered in their old vehicle. Often times, people will find themselves driving more miles per month after purchasing their Tesla than they ever did in their old car(s). When you see how little the "gas" expense is to plan a long range trip in a Tesla, it's really easy to get excited about driving distances that you'd never even considered pre-Tesla.

This forum is littered with posts about people with buyer's remorse... guys/gals that bought the Standard Range car, and really, really regret it.

When ever I talk to someone that has decided that they're going to buy a Tesla, I offer the following words of advice: "Get all the Tesla you can. You'll never be sorry." Get the longest range, get all the options. Get AWD if you'll be driving it in snow. Get the Performance model if you're a speed junky. Just get allllll the Tesla. You WILL be driving it A LOT more than you think you will.

And even better? That "Tesla Smile" you have on delivery day just gets bigger with time. At 53 years old, and having owned more cars than I'd care to admit, I can honestly say that I have NEVER purchased ANYTHING that has given me as much joy as our little Tesla. And it just keeps getting better the longer we own it. My wife calls our Tesla "the other woman." She's not wrong. ; )

My Dad taught me how to fly airplanes when I was 10 years old. I'm also an airline pilot. My wife used to tell people, "he'd rather spend a day with an airplane than with any person on Earth." She has since replaced the word "airplane" in that sentence with the word "Tesla." And once again, she's not wrong.

Sure, not everyone is going to be so completely over-the-moon about their Tesla as I am, but overall I think it's pretty safe to say that most Tesla owners have no plans to drive anything else again. Ever. Don't sell yourself short by not getting the most out of the experience... Get all the Tesla you can comfortably afford.

I am still waiting for Full Service Drive to be fully baked, but it sure is fun to have while I'm waiting.

Please stay in touch, and let us know what you think of your new Tesla!

 

[TLCTimFL]

I love the FSD! I use it all the time traveling on I-75 and I-4 frequently. But what really pisses me off about Tesla, is that they are replacing the 2.5s in other cars when purchasing the FSD after the sale and say they don't have any 3.0 available to replace mine after I've owned it for 15 months (paying for EVERYTHING upfront). So no offense to you, but that really sucks that you got yours before mine and I've been requesting the retrofit for months!View attachment 550063

@MrDee I'm crossing my fingers. I opened a service request on the app last night and vented my problem with this exact issue. So far so good. They have not cancelled my appointment yet which is on Jun 26.

 

[Mojito]

@MrDee I'm crossing my fingers. I opened a service request on the app last night and vented my problem with this exact issue. So far so good. They have not cancelled my appointment yet which is on Jun 26.

Im with you Im here in Orlando I bought mine 2 weeks before the new HW 3.0 was being shipped Im still awaiting for my Update but I'm waiting patiently hopping a 3.5 is announce and not missed to boat again. Dont be too impatient at the end only thing we are missing is the stop lights and stop signs that is still in beta and dont forget to be able to view the trash and cones.

 

[TLCTimFL]

Im with you Im here in Orlando I bought mine 2 weeks before the new HW 3.0 was being shipped Im still awaiting for my Update but I'm waiting patiently hopping a 3.5 is announce and not missed to boat again. Dont be too impatient at the end only thing we are missing is the stop lights and stop signs that is still in beta and dont forget to be able to view the trash and cones.

I don't know how you live in that crazy city...LOL...I can only stand so much of I-4. But being Disney Vacation Club members, we'll be over in a couple weeks when the resorts first open so we can be first in the room since deep cleaning. Just an R&R trip with no parks. You are probably right with the 3.5 but I'll bet that takes a couple years. I don't want to wait that long. I love the car but just felt I was being handled. My appointment still stands!

 

[Fernand]

@Michelle_eriw you just provided critical info that I hadn't noticed before: that you cannot afford both AWD/LR and FSD. That changes things a lot.

Then of course the fact that you could add on FSD later, but cannot add a bigger battery, skews things heavily towards choosing more battery now.

Unless you don't now, and won't likely later, really need the extra range. The extra motor isn't important IMHO, it just make the extra range more expensive.

So when do you not need the extra range? You don't need the extra range if you drive where there are enough superchargers. If you keep the car charged at home, and that handles your daily needs, then you're golden either way.

It's when you take long trips that you need superchargers to stop, get coffee and charge. If the superchargers are thin there, like in Canada at the moment, and especially where it gets very cold, you definitely want the extra range, even though you're paying for the unnecessary extra motor to get it (sigh). Driving 100 miles round trip on freeways, is perfectly handled on any current Tesla battery. And much much longer trips too, unless there are no Superchargers around.

If you drive mostly on freeways, the FSD (as NOA) is immediately valuable, regardless of what additional capabilities come later. And adding it later is a big chunk of cash.

So first and foremost decide if a thin Supercharger environment and low temps make the bigger battery essental. Or if you're likely to want to boost up from AWD/LR to a pseudo-P for what is it, $2k. Neither seems to be your case.

I think it's pretty clear that FSD wins for you. And please don't judge NOA based on a few days' test. It takes some perseverance, weeks or even months, to get really good and comfortable with it. It's like adding an AI interface to your driving brain. Then you really fly together. People who dabble in it, get (naturally) nervous and leave it off, don't ever get there. So they'll say "it's half baked". No point in explaining this in depth, call it my idiosyncrasy if you want. But you're techie enough to persevere, you'll see what I mean.
.

 

[Fernand]

When you are late that's the best time to use advanced driver's aids like AP..

If I'm in that mode, I'm in desperate adrenaline mode. I definitely prefer to avoid it.

The much safer intermediate mode is to use NOA in Mad Max with the top speed set to something the car can't possibly reach in that traffic, and let it try ;-)
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[Nickage87]

I ordered a Model 3 Standard Range + last week for delivery in the January-February 2021 time frame. I'm trying to decide whether to order the Full Self-Driving option. Is it worth the $7,000?

Get long range rwd instead for that money